[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hi, my name is Brendan Malone and you're listening to the dispatches, the podcast that strives to cut through all the noise in order to challenge the popular narratives of the day with some good old fashioned contrarian thinking. You might not always agree, but at least you'll be taking a deeper look at the world around you.
Hi everybody. Welcome along to the Friday Freebie edition of the Dispatches podcast. It is great to be back with you again. My name is Brendan Malone. If you're new here and you're enjoying the content, why not subscribe on whatever.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Platform you're listening on?
[00:00:35] Speaker A: And if you haven't done so already, please give the show a rating. If you're able to do that on the platform that you're listening on right now, all of that really, really helps the podcast. Last but not least, if you want access to a daily episode Monday through Friday of the Dispatches podcast, then all you have to do is go to patreon.com leftfootmedia. The link is in today's show notes and become a five dollar monthly Patreon for less than the cost of a cup of coffee each month, you'll get access to authentically conservative commentary on news and current affairs issues. You will hear about news items that are not covered in the mainstream media, particularly in the area of bioethics and pro life issues. And lastly, you will also hear exclusives, interviews and other things that you will not be able to hear in other places. That's patreon.com leftfootmedia. A huge thank you to all of our patrons who are helping to support the dispatches and enabling us to do lots of other independent media projects as well. Alrighty. Today's topic of conversation is actually the replay of an interview that previously was only available as a YouTube video interview. And today this is going to be, for the first time, available here as an audio podcast. And it is an interview with a lady called Melody Pilgrim. Malady Pilgrim was born and raised in Gloria Vale, the controversial and extremely secretive and, as we all know now, highly abusive commune that was founded in 1969 here in New Zealand by the now deceased Neville Cooper, or hopeful Christian, as he is known inside the commune. In October 2019, Melody secretly escaped with her four daughters to join her husband, who had already fled the commune ten months earlier. She subsequently settled in South Canterbury and then began courageously speaking up about her experiences inside Gloria Vale in the hope that this would bring about desperately needed change. This interview with Melody, which I originally recorded back in August 2020, was one of the most impacting conversations that I have ever had with anybody on leftfoot media, and I really don't say that lightly. At the time, I was also someone who thought they knew all about the Gloria Val commune, but even I was shocked by some of the revelations that Melody shared with me during this interview about the true nature of what had been and what was going on inside the commune in light of the new documentary tv series about Guerrero wall called Escaping Utopia, which was broadcast by TVNZ over three consecutive nights last week. And it's a series that I would highly recommend. By the way, I thought it was important for Melody's story to be heard again by the listeners of this podcast. And as I said for the first time as an audio only podcast, the original version of this conversation was published by us as a video interview which has now gone on to attract almost 40,000 views and can still be watched and shared on our YouTube channel using the link that is in today's show. Notes. In a couple of weeks time, we will also be posting another follow up podcast interview that we recorded with a lady called Liz Gregory. Liz is an amazing woman who, along with her husband Graham, has dedicated years of her life to helping people to escape Gloria Val, and also providing comprehensive, practical care and support to them once they are out. She is also featured in the TVNZ documentary series Escaping Utopia, as well as the 2022 documentary movie Gloria Vale. Her dedication to this cause is an important part of the ongoing Gloria Vale saga, and in particular her dedication to seeking authentic justice for all victims and all those who are still involved, which is why we will be publishing our interview with her as a podcast episode on Friday the 26 April. In the meantime, please enjoy this powerful, moving, and at times challenging conversation with Melody Pilgrim as she exposes the truth about life inside Gloria Vale.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Melody, thank you so much for being with us here to have this important conversation. Let's start at the very beginning and try and get a sense for what life is like at Gloria Valley. You're someone who was born inside the commune. Can you tell us what daily life is like at Gloria Vale? Do you have a routine? How do you start your day? What do you do throughout the day? What happens at the end of the day? How does the daily routine of Gloria Vaal actually work?
[00:05:21] Speaker C: Okay, so it's very routine and structured and you do the same job day after day, week after week. So it's like your own little world. Like anything could be happening outside of Gloryvale, and it doesn't really impact on your life. The single girls and the like, the men going to Deray. They're the ones getting up first. So that's around like three, four in the morning. The dere guys go to dere and then single girls go to the kitchen or the laundry and start their duties there, cooking the meals, washing the clothes. And then they get the children out around 06:30 good to seven.
So they get the children out, get them dressed, everyone makes their beds, tidy their room and so you're all set to go to breakfast in the main hall and then all the schoolchildren go to school and the mums take the younger preschool children home and they get them ready for their centres. And then all the other ladies, they have rostered jobs, they are all rostered on teams and they go to the team leader, like as soon as they've dropped their children off at the centre, they go to their team leader and report for a job.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: So you do that, you do that sort of work until lunchtime and then afternoon, you do more work in the afternoon and then what, you gather together for an evening meal?
[00:06:54] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: And what happens after dinner then? Do you have some sort of meeting or what happens in the community after dinner is finished?
[00:07:02] Speaker C: So you'd either help with dishes, the meme would either help dishes or go home and just spend some family time together.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: What happens on weekends? Public holidays, like on the outside, as you know now the weekend rolls around. Everyone says, thank goodness it's the weekend. They stop, they relax. On public holidays you would do leisure activities, you'd have a break. Does the community do that sort of thing on the weekends and public holidays? What happens there?
[00:07:26] Speaker C: Okay, so on Friday nights they would have a movie time together where they'd watch a film in the main gym of the school and they'd have supper there and then Saturday morning breakfast would be half an hour later, like at 08:00 and.
But you'd still, you'd still be going to work.
[00:07:54] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: So, yeah, the dads would be going out and they would take, like, if any of them could take boys with them, they'd be taking them out working. And with the mums, if you had a lot of primary children, you could go and do jobs with your primaries and get replaced in the centre.
But yeah, the moms and dads are still working but then trying to look after the primary children because there's no.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: School in Saturday and that on what. So Sunday's the only day that you would stop. Would you have some sort of church service or what happens? And then you relax, do you?
[00:08:32] Speaker C: Yeah. So it was really Sunday was like the family day. So we were having.
I think we were having either, like, midday. A midday service, so you could have, like, the morning to do something with your family, and then the midday service, and then you would have teal together with.
In the main dining hall. But public holidays, you. You'd just work like they were just a normal day.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Tell me, you've mentioned watching a movie on a Friday night.
Is there entertainment in the community?
I'm assuming they must control that quite carefully. You couldn't just rent and watch any movie, I'm assuming. What do you do for entertainment? How do they handle things? Like watching a film?
[00:09:19] Speaker C: Yes. So the movies that they buy, they do edit them before they put them, like, in the DVD library.
[00:09:27] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: Or put them out for six night viewing. So, yeah, we'd watch a lot of.
Forget the name of it, but it was like the nature channels with.
Yeah, the english guy that narrates them.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: David Attenborough.
[00:09:48] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they'd, like, watch a, like a drama film for the second film that was like. It could be a story that was, like, based on true events, like a real life based film or something. That was inspiring. Or. We did also watch a lot of war movies, like World War Two. So. Yeah.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Were they modern films? Were they older films? And when you say they edit them, would they. They would edit out things that they didn't want people to see? Is that what they would do?
[00:10:24] Speaker C: Yeah, well, with some of the, like, the second film was more like an adults film, so sometimes they'd, like, edit the swearing or something was too violent or graphic.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Interesting. Do you have a. Do you. Are there any favorite films or films that you saw a few times in there that you remember?
[00:10:42] Speaker C: Yep. There's lots of films I used to love watching called Jesus.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: More we knows growing up, but I liked watching, like, the Jane Austen.
[00:10:54] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Tell me, at Glorivale, who leads at Gloria Vale? I assume there is a hierarchy of some kind. You know, that there's a main leader, and then there's the next tier of leadership, and, you know, so on and so on. Who leads Gloria Val, what is the leadership structure? Who's in charge, if you like?
[00:11:14] Speaker C: Okay, so at the moment, I believe it's Howard. So Howard's the appointed leader.
[00:11:20] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:20] Speaker C: And then under him. So he's. He's the top sheep, what they call shepherd.
[00:11:25] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: So under him, these. More shepherds, which is fervent. Steepest Enoch, I think, faithful pilgrim. And I might have missed someone out, and then they'd have under them the servants, which is the rest of the leaders.
And then it would go from there to, like, the top work managers. Yeah, but most of the work managers are in the leading circle.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: How do you become a leader?
Do they pick people? Do you graduate up the leadership chain of command? Once you're in at the bottom level, do you know, do they promote you? How do you become a leader and how do you move through it?
[00:12:14] Speaker C: They chose who's in the leading circle. Like, the leaders already here chose who's going to be in the leading circle. It's not something you can decide you want to be in and just join. You have to be chosen.
One of my brothers, my oldest brother was actually chosen to be in that leading circle when he was in there, and he saw how they dealt with people and their meetings end. He didn't want to be a part of it, so he declined it, basically.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Tell me, when it comes to issues like Bible, the Bible and theology, how's that sort of stuff treated or handled inside? Guruval, is it, is the Bible interpreted for you? Are you allowed to read theology books from outside the community? How much freedom do you have there?
[00:13:12] Speaker C: It's very strictly controlled. The Bible is interpreted for you by the leaders, and if you want to question or discuss any different view, it's. It's on very. You're on very shaky ground because. Yeah, they don't really encourage a lot of.
Well, this is my perception that the exploration into, like, different views in theology is not really encouraged with just the ordinary people, like the people who aren't leaders.
It's basically only the people that are leaders that can interpret scripture correctly. Basically, that's how you're brought up thinking.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: And do they do any study or is it all internally? So they maybe study as a group, but they don't read outside authors or theologians. They don't do a degree in scripture study or anything like that. It's all internal. Is it?
[00:14:25] Speaker C: I don't know of anyone that's done, like, gone to a Bible college except for hopeful.
And he often talked about, like, his time when he went to Bible college. But I don't think any of the other leaders have done that sort of study.
There are a few of them that have done extensive, like, research into the history of, like, the church through the ages.
But basically earlier when they made up the book, what we believe, they decided there everything that we were going to believe and basically stopped there. And it's like we've already got all the knowledge. There's nothing else we need to learn. So we're not going to open the doors full any more growth. That's how I see it.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: What had happened if someone said, hey, does this passage of scripture really mean what you say it means? So if they questioned the leaders or they questioned an interpretation, you said they'd be on thin ice. Could they get in real trouble for doing something like that?
[00:15:35] Speaker C: Yes. Well, my husband, actually, when he talked to his dad, he wanted to know why the ladies wanted unquestioning obedience from him. And he said, what scripture can you give me to back that up? And his dad said to him, I'm quoted to him, I obey the scripture, obey them, have the rule over you. And so my husband said, okay, so that makes you rulers and your roller, then, not like a shepherd.
And, yeah. His dad said to him, you be careful what you say. You're on very shaky ground.
[00:16:21] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:16:22] Speaker C: Basically like, yeah, so if you keep.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: Pushing it, you could be expelled? Is that what you suggested?
[00:16:27] Speaker C: Yeah. You will be. There's no question about that. You will be expelled if you keep pushing that.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: What did you know about life? Because you were born there, you grew up there. What did you know about life outside of Gloria Vaal? And were you aware of the world outside? Obviously, you knew something was out there. What were you told about us normies, I suppose, outside of Glaruva? What did you think about life outside?
[00:16:51] Speaker C: Yeah. So you were taught that there's a lot of evil and wickedness and that was the devil's domain.
You'd refer to it, people out in the world?
[00:17:05] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:17:06] Speaker C: Yeah. For people that weren't in gloriophaal and. Yeah. So being in glorifale was safe.
It ensured your salvation if you stayed there.
[00:17:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:17:18] Speaker C: Yeah. So which is very different to my experience on coming out of Gloravale. I've just found so much kindness from the church groups and even people like in the south Canterbury region where I've been, they're just so kind. They're not even professing christians, and it shouldn't be. But it's quite a stark difference to Christianity and glorify.
It's sort of hard to explain to someone that hasn't lived there, because if you go there as a visitor, you'll be treated differently than if you're just living there.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: So are you saying they put on a bit of a show for a visitor and then when the visitors are gone, it's a lot harsher?
[00:18:09] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: You're married, you've got children. How did you come to be married?
Did you fall in love with your husband. And there was a marriage proposal, or was it arranged or, you know, do they tell you who you're going to marry? How did that all happen?
[00:18:23] Speaker C: Okay, so they don't teach the concept of falling in love. I mean, they say it in a bad light. Like, the world has the notion of falling in love. And if you fall in love, then you can fall out of love.
[00:18:37] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: So that's taught in that light.
[00:18:41] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:18:42] Speaker C: So my marriage.
So hopeful. Talked to my husband when he was single, and he said that he needed to go away and pray about who the Lord wanted him to marry. And I'm pretty sure they give them a list of names.
[00:19:00] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:19:04] Speaker C: So they give them a list of names to go away and pray about, and then they'll come back, like, in a few days too hopeful. And he said, oh, what do you think about so and so hopeful, basically.
See, this is the girl. What do you think? Yeah. And then the young man would go and talk to her father, and then the father would talk to the girl then. Yeah. So the parents would talk to the girl. For me, I didn't expect to get married because I had been chosen to go on, like, a missionary trip to India.
[00:19:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:45] Speaker C: So, yeah, I was 22. I had finished my diploma in early childhood education.
I was one of the oldest girls, and there's always more single girls than single men. So I thought, okay, you know, someone's not going to get a husband, and, you know, I should prepare myself not to get married.
[00:20:05] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: So, and you were 22 and you're thinking that.
[00:20:09] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:20:10] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: Out of the blue, my dad says, oh, someone's coming to ask you to marry them, but I'm not going to tell you how it is. I'm just like, that isn't normal. The dad usually tells the daughter who's coming to ask them.
That's probably just my dad.
[00:20:31] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:31] Speaker C: Yeah. So even though there is a proposal, it is actually arranged, but it's done in a way that it seems like it's a proposal. Yeah.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: So are you. How old are people when they do this? Like, the average age someone. So you're saying 22 and you thought you might never get married? Does that mean people get married young?
[00:20:51] Speaker C: Yes. So, yeah, girls, like, once you're 23 or 24, it's sort of like you're.
You're like the.
You're past the Joe by day.
[00:21:05] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, man.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Were there ever people who wanted to marry someone that they had fallen in love with but was not on the list and were prevented from doing that? Did that ever happen?
[00:21:20] Speaker C: I've heard stories of. Yeah. Of young people that wanted to marry someone else, but they had to marry her. Hopeful, sick. They were going to marry.
[00:21:28] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So there have been some. Some real issues in some of the marriages, which is really sad. I mean, I feel really blessed and fortunate because I've had such a happy marriage.
[00:21:42] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:43] Speaker C: But there have been some marriages that they just haven't worked and there's just been ongoing issues in those people's lives and I just feel really sorry for them.
Yeah.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Tell me, what about things like scandal or crisis within, like, inside Gloria veil? So, like, in the real world, you know, it involves human beings and human mistakes get made and human sinfulness and everything else. The frailty of human nature. Right. So people commit adultery, they might steal things, there might be domestic abuse, all those kind of scandals and different moments of crisis that can arise. I'm assuming stuff like that must have happened inside Gloria Vale as well. How were things like that handled? Did they deal with it? Was it hidden away? What happened?
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Mostly they would. They would stand up and they would talk about what had happened and they would sometimes or sometimes not say the person's name. Basically, it was like a public denouncement, you might say.
[00:22:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Speaker C: So that would be after, like, a meeting that the ladies would have with them and the person would repent and ask for forgiveness. And probably, depending on who it was or what the issue was, they would often stand up and make a public apology as well. But I think, yeah, a lot of things were actually swept under the carpet and not talked about. And to me, it wasn't the fact that mistakes happen or wrong things did happen. It was more that they don't want to admit that they did. They don't want to face up to what actually happened and be honest. Yeah.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Do you. Obviously, people have left and it seems a lot more of late have left Gloria Vale. Do you remember as a kid growing up, anyone leaving or is that sort of something that happens quietly and they don't talk about it? You know, how do they handle someone leaving? Do you remember people leaving?
[00:23:44] Speaker C: My earliest memory of someone leaving, I think I was, what? Eight?
[00:23:51] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:23:53] Speaker C: So my best friend, a girl in my grade, her family went and I just remember. I just keep crying and crying. I couldn't stop crying. I was really. Because she was my best friend. And then one day she was gone.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Did you. How did they. How did they talk about that after she'd gone? Did they just. You don't mention the person. What happens?
[00:24:18] Speaker C: I don't remember at that age that anything was said. But I have had, like, brothers, go, sister, go, dad, go, husband, go.
I've had friends like my age that were in my grade that have been married and they've went and they often publicly denounced and, yeah. Talked about how the evil and wicked and they're trying to destroy the church if they go on media and say anything. So, yeah, I would be considered an enemy of the church by speaking out publicly, as I am now.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Tell me, have you had. Is there ever been an opportunity, will there be an opportunity for you to reconnect with your friend when you were eight years old? You remember her because the family left. Have you been able to track them down? Or is there no way doing that their family?
[00:25:15] Speaker C: I'll just say that.
So my best friend's brother, older brother, actually married my older sister. So in that family, the older children, like the teenagers, were given the choice of staying at Gloria Vale with no relatives, no mum and dad, or going with their mum and dad. And some of them stayed. And one of the young men from that family actually married my older sister.
[00:25:44] Speaker D: Wow. Yep.
[00:25:45] Speaker C: Yeah. So their family. So they ended up going to Australia.
[00:25:50] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:52] Speaker C: And, yeah, I haven't talked to her.
[00:25:56] Speaker D: Wow. Since.
[00:25:58] Speaker C: I haven't seen her since. Yeah, since I was eight.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Do you remember when Phil Cooper exposed his father, who's known as hopeful Christian, inside the commune, obviously, and outside, everyone knows him here as Neville Cooper.
[00:26:14] Speaker D: Now.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: He went to jail. His son wrote the book. Do you remember that incident? Do you remember, was it hidden in the community? Did they talk about it at all?
[00:26:22] Speaker C: I don't. I don't remember Phil Cooper, but I remember them hopeful often would talk about how they came to connect prayer and took the children and. Yeah, I remember hopeful going to prison because all the families would take turns visiting him.
But I never knew what he had done.
We were just told that he was being persecuted for his faith. Yes. I didn't. I didn't find out what he had done or about what had happened, really happened to Phil Cooper and his family until I came out and I actually read Phil's book. And it just. It just made me so sad because I saw the same thing still happening.
[00:27:08] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: Like, to my older brother and his wife, that that hopeful did, too. His own son and his wife, they just keep them apart at all cost.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: So because he went to jail for. Everyone on the outside knew he'd been jailed for sexual abuse, but on the inside, you're saying in the community, they were told that he was what he was being persecuted by the world or something like that.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Well, I never knew that he had been a sexual offender.
[00:27:36] Speaker D: Wow, that's.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: That's unbelievable.
Do you remember the incident in 2015 when that. The very tragic death of 14 year old prayer Riddy was inside the timeout room or something?
[00:27:50] Speaker C: Yes. She's my younger sister.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Oh, I did not know that.
[00:27:54] Speaker C: It's okay.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: What was that like? And how is grief like that processed in the community? Do they deal with that grief? How did they deal with it?
[00:28:04] Speaker C: Okay. Sadly, at that time, with our family, we couldn't process that grief.
So the events around that were a little bit complicated because it was my sister's child that was really sick.
And, yeah, it was a real shock.
It was a real shock. I remember my younger brother coming and telling me. He rang me up on the phone and said, pres did. I'm like, no, what are you talking about? And he was just shaking, and he came and got me, and he took me to the room, and I was just like.
I couldn't process. It was just. Just too shocking. And, yeah, what was really difficult for our family is that the truth wasn't actually able to be told, I believe so. My younger brother and two younger sisters that were close to prayer and age, it really, really affected them because they weren't allowed to talk about how they felt about it.
So all that hurts just got internalized and it couldn't get processed for them. So actually, it took them years.
They blamed themselves. Like, they even contemplated, you know, committing suicide because they thought it was their fault that she had died. But, yeah, like, there was no counseling.
We carried on the next day, went to work, like, you know, prepare for the funeral and all that, but I was just, like, back into normal work.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Look, first of all, thank you for your honesty and talking about, you know, obviously this is your family that we talk about, not just an incident, but. And feel free. Not if you don't want to talk too much more about. That's fine. But do you feel that the truth was told to the outside authorities? Because this has been one of the things that made a lot of headlines outside about that incident, and it still feels like we haven't quite been told the full story.
[00:30:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I.
I don't think the family's voice was really heard. I think my mum and dad were allowed to speak, but we were all. I was like, the family was there with the coroner.
We were all sitting around the table, but there were leaders there as well. And it was like, you know, it was like a mutual understanding that we weren't allowed to say anything. It was only mummy and daddy that were allowed to talk.
[00:30:38] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: And then it was limited on what they could say because there are other people sitting there, so the family couldn't actually express how they felt about it and then deal with that and process going through the grieving stage. So, yeah.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Wow. That must be extremely tough now. So that's a situation where you've talked about, the leaders are there when they're talking to the coroner about a very serious incident.
It seems that.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't. They could have. Mum and dad could have talked to the coroner on their own, I'm not sure. But at that time, when the family was there, they were later there as well.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: That sort of oversight and constant. It's almost like surveillance. Were they there with you? Is that quite normal inside Gloria Vale?
[00:31:28] Speaker D: Is it?
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Yes, it is.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: What about your marriage and your family space? Is that like a safe space where you can talk more freely with your husband or your wife? Or are you always constantly on guard about what you say, just in case someone was to report you or something like that?
[00:31:46] Speaker C: So if I wanted to talk to my husband about something I didn't want anyone else to hear or even suspect me of discussing, I would never talk about it in a private, in a public place. I would only ever talk to him in our bedroom on our own.
So my husband's was put out in 2018, December, and I didn't come out with our girls until 2019, October.
[00:32:17] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:32:18] Speaker C: So I felt, yeah, I had to be really careful about who I talked to, what I said, because I knew I was being watched and listened to the whole time.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Is there ever. Were you ever aware of being afraid that maybe your children might hear one of your conversations with your husband? Is there a fear in the community that children might hear something and then tell the leaders, or is that a concern?
[00:32:44] Speaker C: Yeah, that can be a concern, yes.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: When did you first begin to realise that maybe something was wrong about Gloria, Val? When did you perhaps in yourself, start to think, I don't think this is right here. I think this is serious and it's not good. When. Do you remember what it was or what, when that began to happen for you?
[00:33:05] Speaker C: Yes. So I think the thing that triggered for me was finding out what hopeful had made my mum and dad do. That was really mind blowing, because I don't believe a man of God could do something like that.
So that's when I first started thinking, something's wrong.
So I only found out.
Was it a couple of months before hopeful.
It was like a couple of weeks before he died.
And then the other thing that sparked it, too, was my younger brother who had been put out when he was only 17.
He was really struggling still with prayer, dying. And he had come. He needed to come and talk to mummy and daddy and visit them often.
And I remember the scene. He had, like, three leaders holding him back from getting to my mum. And hopeful was standing there beside her, like, right next to her and stroking her on the arm with this look on his face, like, I can do anything I want to your mother and there's nothing you can do to stop me. And you know that just. And after finding out what he had done and then seeing that scene, I was really, really angry.
And I went to my mum and I said, mummy, is this true? What actually happened? And then when she told me, I was like, right, he's got to face up to what he's done. Our family is going to go and face him up about this. So we all got together, the ones of us that were still here.
One of my brothers was actually really worried because he had been chosen as a servant, so he was trying to stop me. But my husband actually stood up for me. So it was a meeting with just mummy and daddy and us children and then hopeful and then two other leaders, and we faced him up about it. And the horrible thing is that he denied everything until.
Because we had witnesses there, my mum and dad. Until the witnesses said, yes, it's true. He did do that.
So after that, I was just like, okay, if he didn't tell the truth about that, what other lies has he told? How many other lies has he told?
And the fact that the other two leaders sat there and said nothing.
[00:35:46] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:35:47] Speaker C: The whole time proved that they knew or it even happened to them, even.
They just sat there with their heads in shame. One of them tried to stop us from talking because it was mainly me and my older sister that were saying, like, this happened and this happened.
Yeah. And they tried to shut us down. But, um. But daddy's actually. I was actually really. I was just. We were all really praying that the lord would actually just give our dad the courage to actually stand up and speak. Because I believe that the leaders don't want fathers to be fathers.
[00:36:31] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:36:32] Speaker C: They don't want them to be the head of their home. They want to be the head of the homes. The father's just a puppet. He's just the. To do what they say.
[00:36:40] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:41] Speaker C: And I felt that that's what had happened in our family. That hopeful had actually used our dad's weaknesses to actually destroy our family.
And.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's awful. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's just no words to describe that. I think of my own family. I'm a father of five kids, and.
And I understand the betrayal of fatherhood and what was done to your dad and what happens to your family. I mean, that's just.
Tell me, was that sort of behavior, do you think, that other leaders had copied hopeful in doing that sort of thing? Because there was an issue, I think. Was it about a year or so back where someone else was convicted for sexual offending from within the community, or was it just hopeful Christian who'd been doing these sorts of things?
[00:37:33] Speaker C: So from what I found out, other people had been doing those sort of things, what hopeful did, but the whole, it wasn't just about what he did, it was about how he taught what he actually taught.
So in people's thinking and the concept of it's not the man's fault. He can't help it. This is how he thinks. He can't say no. And then on the other side, well, if something happened to girl, it's her fault. She must have been flirting. She must have been trying to put herself out there and attract the men. So it wasn't just what he did, it's what he taught. So then you've got a whole group of people.
This is how they think, because this is what hopefuls taught them.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: So then there's manipulation and control as well.
[00:38:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
And. Yeah, it's just. It's just really, really awful and.
Yeah, just horrible.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: Your husband left first. Now he. You've. You said earlier he. He was. He forced out, is that right?
[00:38:47] Speaker C: Yes. So he. He was not happy with how his sister was being treated. So his older sister is married to my oldest brother.
[00:38:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:38:59] Speaker C: So my oldest brother was put out for reading religious material, a christian book.
[00:39:07] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: Do you remember what the book was?
[00:39:11] Speaker C: Oh, I'd have to. No, I don't. But it was. It was a baptist book, I think.
Yeah. But I think it was about helping wives and husbands to have a better relationship. Like a Christian. Yeah. Just something that was wholesome and good and about helping the family and. Yeah, all scripture based. But because they didn't accept it, then he was a heretic and spreading heretical beliefs and doctrines and had to be put out.
So then they really manipulated my husband's sister to try and get her to not have anything to do with him. They dragged her into countless leaders meetings and just verbally emotionally and psychologically abusing her for, like, years.
So my husband wasn't happy about it, and he went to a staircase. He talked to him about it, how he wasn't happy about it, and his dad would go and talk to the leaders about everything my husband talked to him about. So they couldn't actually have a son father, the relationship. If you question anything like that, then you're on their watch list and they'll come after you.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: So you're saying other people, you're on the watch list, and so they started watching your husband, did they?
[00:40:37] Speaker C: Yeah. And then other people, like, there were other men at work, at his workplace that would try and get him into trouble, so they ended up getting him into, like, the expulsion meeting.
He ended up getting expelled because he was earning money. He was doing jobs for people outside that they didn't know about and earning money, and they wanted control of the money, and they wanted the names of the other people in Gloria Vale that were involved in what he was doing. And he wouldn't give it to them. He wouldn't give them the name. So basically, it came down to, if you tell us who else was involved, you get to stay.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: Your husband's now gone. You're on the inside, on your own now.
What was it that finally convinced you I have to leave, too?
[00:41:32] Speaker C: My sister's. My niece had, um.
There was stuff going on with her.
Um, she had been approached by a married man, and there was, you know, and then she got blamed. And then for, like, a whole year, they'd said it was her fault, and she was then, like, a target. Anything she said, anything she did was reported on. And, yeah, it was just this downward spiral where they were just after her.
And then the whole way they treated my sister in law and then how they talked about people that had left, like my brothers, my dad, my husband.
And. Yeah, I just felt really vulnerable with.
With a lot of the male. Mostly all the male members and my family gone, and my husband gone felt really vulnerable. And I had four girls.
[00:42:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:42:45] Speaker C: So I didn't want them been, like, targets for predators with no one to protect them.
So that was always a worry.
And. Yeah, that's interesting, because I started off praying that my husband would come back.
And then someone actually gave me some sermons from different Baptist pastors, and I started listening to them because what I was getting in our Sunday service at Gloria vault, I just felt like, this is so dead. I feel like there's just raking through the same stuff, like raking through the mud over and over again. Every week, because it was on about, you know, people that were so bad that had left or, you know, other, other doctrines that were evil.
Just like, I'm dying, spiritually, I'm dying. I just felt like I was shriveling up inside.
And then, of course, that was affecting, like, my children. Like, if I felt like I was shriveling, how. What were they actually getting? And they really loved their dad. I loved my husband. It was really hurting that we've been separated and that the teaching was like, not to go with your husband because he's wicked and evil and going to hell because he's gone. And the only way you can get to heaven is if you stay here. And the only way your children will be saved is if you stay here with them.
So, yeah, and then I think the final straw was when my ten year old, she ran away.
[00:44:41] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:44:41] Speaker C: So she got all, all the way down, down the drive and out the front gate. It's like, is it like three to 5 km?
[00:44:52] Speaker D: Wow. Yep.
[00:44:53] Speaker C: So she did that on her own. I didn't know until like seven in the morning. I went to make her bed and I found a note that she left that she was going to. She was going to find daddy and she couldn't stand skull anymore.
And, yeah, she, she'd taken my bag and my torch and she was going to return them as soon as she could. And please send her bike helmet and jacket or something.
[00:45:24] Speaker B: Yeah, as ten year olds do.
[00:45:27] Speaker C: That was like the last draw. I was like, okay, yeah, gotta go.
After that, Howard, who's the leader, he stood up and told everyone what she'd done.
And I was just like, how can you do that to my ten year old? She's only ten years old.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Tell me, did you formulate a plan? Did you talk to anyone?
Did you think, this is how I'm going to do it? This is when I'm going to do it? Or did you just say, right, that's it, I'm gone. And you packed your bags and you left?
[00:45:59] Speaker C: Yeah, it was like that. It was that quick.
[00:46:01] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:46:02] Speaker C: So, yeah, I rang my husband. I said, I need you to come, because he would have visiting every two weeks where he'd get to have the girls for a day and a night.
So I said, can you come over early? The girls need to be with you. It's not working. We need to talk about what we can do. And then I was actually planning to stay longer because I was feeling bad about leaving my work because I'd actually been training to be the supervisor of one of the centres the last two years. So I was feeling just really bad about just walking out and leaving my teaching team, so I thought I could stay on till the end of the year and finish the working year.
But, yeah, it didn't. It didn't live like that. Couldn't stay there.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: What's life like for you now outside of Glauruva? I guess it must have, first of all, been a bit strange and surreal, realizing that it wasn't what you'd been told it was. But how have you found it now? Because it's been less than a year, hasn't it, since you've been out?
[00:47:11] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And so are you. Do you. Are you adjusting? What's it like for you?
[00:47:20] Speaker C: So when I first came out, I was in a state of shock.
I think the biggest thing that leavers find coming out is a visual shock. You're just not used to seeing everything that you see.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:35] Speaker C: Yeah. So I was quite unwell too. Just worn out from working hard and just from what I've been through and, yeah, the health issues I had were getting worse because I was under so much stress and pressure.
So, yeah, I've definitely improved health wise.
I've found, like, a real apace has come over our family. Just been able to be together in our own home, be able to create that atmosphere of peace and love without the fear. Yeah, because you'd have real fear in Gloria Vail and it would. It would torment you day and night, the fear that was there.
But, yeah, um, I feel like I'm still transitioning because there's lots of things I'm still learning to do.
[00:48:26] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:26] Speaker C: Um, like, I'm still. I've got my luna's license.
[00:48:31] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: Congratulations.
[00:48:33] Speaker C: Thank you.
Yes. I've got my learner's license in on training for my restricted year end.
Because I had done early childhood teaching for.
Since I was 17. I wanted to do something else. So I'm just looking at, like, some online jobs or just, like, a part time job where I can still be, like, a mum at home and still keep my family the way I want to.
[00:49:00] Speaker B: That's awesome. Tell me, just a couple of questions to finish with. Firstly, do you think that Gloria Vale can survive? Because I look at this as an outsider and it seems to me like things are starting to unravel in a very big way. So it seems a lot more people have left in the last couple of years than I've ever heard about. And I remember from knowing about Gloria Val from my childhood. And also, then you had the founder Neville Cooper, or hopeful Christian, as he's also known. He died just over two or just on two years ago.
Do you think things can keep going? Will it survive? Or do you think it's starting to actually hit a critical mass where it's starting to unravel now?
[00:49:38] Speaker C: I don't think things can keep going how they've been going.
Hopeful was actually quite charismatic as a leader, and he actually really held things together.
He was the most dominant male, you might say, and he made sure everyone else knew that Howard is not a dominant person. He's a lot more soft spoken, and I think he can be actually, like, overridden by some of the other more dominant leaders. So, yeah, I don't think it can keep going. I think it's starting to crack and unravel, and I think it needs to and these two to be save the people that are still trapped in there. And I think the more stories that are told and shared, I think that will help that process, and hopefully the government agencies will help, too.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: One of the questions I was going to ask you to finish with was, what would you like to see happen with Gloria Vale now? Because you've got some family who are still in there, right?
What would you like? What's your ideal? Is it that they become an open church community or that everyone leaves and it gets disbanded and the whole place gets sold? What would your ideal dream situation be?
[00:50:58] Speaker C: It's sort of a complex question because it's not like you want to destroy everything that's there, because, you know, there's these sincere people there and these people that do love God there. But the problem is, is that the foundation it was built on by hopeful is actually a bad foundation.
And because, yeah, it's like a cult, and they follow the leader's teachings and beliefs. They can't actually change it unless the foundation is actually taken away and they start something new.
Yeah. So my hope is that my family will come out and, yeah, come out of the fear, the torment, the suffering. And other people there, too, can be. Can be released from that.
[00:51:57] Speaker B: Melody, thank you so much for not just having this conversation with us, but your honesty and sharing so openly about your experiences.
Yeah, there were times that I found myself really moved and powerfully touched and impacted by what you had to say. And I think, like, for my wife and I, we have great admiration for you and for the others who have come out and are openly sharing their stories, we think the courage that you are showing is important. And so I am extremely grateful and I am absolutely confident that those who have tuned in to this episode, who have watched this and heard your story feel exactly the same way. So a huge thank you. And I really, really mean that for your courage.
[00:52:42] Speaker C: Thank you. Everything I'm doing is just to help the people who are still trapped in so chlorophyll.
[00:53:17] Speaker A: The Dispatchers podcast is a production of Leftfoot media. If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of our
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