[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome along to another episode of the Dispatchers. My name is Brendan Malone. It is great to be back with you again and today's topic of conversation solving the prison problem.
Hi, my name is Brendan Malone and you're listening to the Dispatchers, the podcast that strives to cut through all the noise in order to challenge the popular narratives of the day with some good old fashioned contrarian thinking. You might not always agree, but at least you'll be taking a deeper look at the world around you.
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[00:02:12] Speaker B: Jamie, we're on the way home from having spent glorious couple of hours SEM Fenan Field distillery. And last night we were having this conversation. In fact, we had two conversations. I was like, man, we should record these. These would be amazing podcast episodes.
[00:02:30] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, for us to listen to.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Everyone's like, what is this garbage? Couple of old men you know, you know, what's wrong with the world today, young people.
But anyway, I stopped you last night. She said, I've got this idea for prisons. I was like, don't say a word. Don't say a word. We'll record it today on a podcast. So let's start this one by you. Tell me your conversation about prisons. Tell me your idea.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: Oh, just something that. It's only a small thought, but I worked for a few years for the Anglican Church helping men and women out of.
As they were making their way out of jail and into community.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: It's a pretty bad offender, right too.
[00:03:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty high end. So a lot of guys that are at least sort of 10 years away definitely had some around the sort of three to five years, but.
But we tended to pick up.
Just had a.
The group that I worked for had a really excellent name for themselves in terms of helping people who had been a long time away.
Getting back into community. It's not easy for anyone really. But if you've done 10, we had guys that are coming out that had never held a cell phone. You know, some guys that were 40 years.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Can you imagine? It must be like. Like the technological shift that happened for some of those guys while they were doing their lag would have been like. You'd walk out, you're like, what the heck?
[00:04:08] Speaker C: It's like watching. As far as I can tell, it's like watching Star Trek and then walking out the door and it's Star Trek, you know, like it's. But even just some of them that went in and there was, you know, the beginnings of cell phones and all of that. But so much has changed. You forget how much has changed. Yeah. Like you can' yeah.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Did you learn it? You learn it bit by bit by bit and you add layer by layer.
[00:04:33] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: And they put none of those layers.
[00:04:35] Speaker C: Nothing. Nothing at all. And so.
And then society, not just the technology, but for some reason. Yeah. It just changes. It's like. It's a weird thing, but it's like looking back on a. When you look back on an old photo and it's like black and white or a bit grainy. It's like. Even though it's not real.
[00:04:56] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Speaker C: Just the way that we did things. So, you know, we're guys, we're just. Sadly, when an old guy, he had been out with us for about a year, it was very hard to house.
[00:05:05] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: But just. Even the speed of the traffic. So he. He was killed in the end because he just walked an Old fella.
[00:05:15] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:05:15] Speaker C: And he, without even thinking, just walked out into main traffic. He wasn't used to it being that. No, he just looking one way and it. And. No, no one's fault is his own fault. Got clipped by a car.
But a lot of the guys would say, yeah, the traffic's faster, the technology's changed, the intensity is probably the best way I could explain it, of life in the city wasn't as sort of simple and carefree. It was sort of.
[00:05:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: And then for them, it would be, like, so stark because they were not like the frogs boiling in a pot. They just went. From then when they went in, it.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Was 10 kilometers an hour.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: They came out, everything's going 100.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. No, and you'd be like, oh, my.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Gosh, what is this?
[00:06:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a different world, really. And then you're living in this new world with all of the baggage that you have. Some of them with massive guilt still.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:14] Speaker C: Some of them narcissistic and, you know, trying to find their own way in the world.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:06:23] Speaker C: Yeah. Real range. There's quite. What I found interesting is there's a guy in New Zealand, brain guy, Nathan Wallace, and he does a lot of talks with teachers and parents about brain development and young people and about frontal cortex development.
And one of the things amongst Amelia, it's fascinating. If you ever get to go and listen to him speak, it's brilliant. I think it really, really, really interesting and really helpful. If you have children, but during your puberty years, your frontal cortex has shut down, and that's your language and your ability to reason and to see consequence.
And if you haven't been able to see consequence before that frontal cortex shuts down. So you can learn about consequences, but if you haven't got that, you won't learn about consequences until after your frontal cortex is turned back on, which is you get some dumb. Teenagers do dumb, and you're like, what is that guy doing? Did he not think that through?
[00:07:32] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Like jumping off a roof, your leg's gonna break. Why did he do that? And the teenagers. I thought it would be funny.
No. Consequence.
[00:07:40] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:07:41] Speaker C: Anyway, so what can. So an eldest child, especially an eldest child that's had a thousand days with mum and dad, the first thousand days of.
Been in a really stable family and there's two parents in the house, then that child tends to have their frontal cortex females just slightly earlier than males, but for the most part, both coming out quite early. Like 18, 17, maybe for the girls, I think, from memory, but 18, 19, and then every other child, male or female, coming out the second row. Because they're not the only child in the house anymore.
[00:08:24] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Speaker C: The second children have to share time with competing interests. The competing interests. Yeah. And it's not that mum and dad aren't less caring. They just don't have the same time.
[00:08:34] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:08:35] Speaker C: And their frontal cortex tends to kick in.
19, 20, 21.
[00:08:41] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:08:41] Speaker C: Like a little bit later, depending on what's going on. You had things like if you're a teenager and you go out and party regularly and drink a lot of alcohol, certain girls especially, you can see the scarring in their brains from alcohol out until the age of 29 before it starts healing properly.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: That's excessive consumption at a very young age.
[00:09:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In their teenage years, when the frontal cortex is shit. So again, from my memory, he would say, no alcohol for young people. Don't even think it's, like, a cool thing to do, like, with your kid, like to introduce him slowly. Just no alcohol.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:09:20] Speaker C: No good for your brain at all, really. Yeah. Especially the definition.
Yeah, yeah. Look how dumb they are.
Rewind, rewind.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Delete that.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
Anyway, so this is just from my listening to us talks.
So things that would delay your frontal cortex turning on would be things like. Yeah, massive.
Like being absolutely hammered on alcohol, like, every weekend can delay your frontal cortex turning on drugs, can delay your frontal cortex turning on abuse, sexual abuse, violence in the home can delay your frontal cortex turning on. The more trauma in your life you've had, the longer it takes for your frontal cortex to turn on. And again, your frontal cortex being like your ability to communicate, to reason and to see consequence.
And so we'd get guys, mostly guys. You know, we had. We work with women as well, but their frontal cortex has definitely came on a bit earlier. But you'd see guys that were 38, 39, 40, and they had been in and out of jail, in and out, in and out, in and out. And then they'd say to you one that just, like one day they go, what the hell am I doing?
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it sort of switched on.
[00:10:53] Speaker C: And they'd say to you. It felt like my brain switched on for the first time and I was suddenly like, this is dumb. I just want to get out of here. I just. This is not fun, you know?
And suddenly they could see consequence and the communication started coming back online. Instead of just basically existing like animals and jail, you really are existing like an animal in jail. For the most part.
[00:11:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: It's like a trauma filled Sort of.
[00:11:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Adding to it.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: Hellhole, really.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you go in there as a young man, it's more. It's more trauma. It's more ptsd. It's more of everything. They still got drugs in jail, everything.
And so you're delaying the frontal cortex coming on. Anyway, all this to say it sort of pondered a lot about our justice system and trying to, you know, what. What could you do to change it? Because it's not an easy. There's no real easy answer.
One of the things, the studies that the agency that I worked for did almost every single time, the number one cause for crime was poverty. And it didn't matter what ethnic group you were in.
It was always the same. Like, it always corresponded to poverty.
So the fact that we had, say, a higher mori or pasifika, people in jail was still related to poverty, which annoys me.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: One of the things that frustrates me is because I grew up in a very poor welfare class family.
And it really frustrates me when I hear people who grew up in elite situations talking about white privilege, and I'm like, dude, we just didn't have that. And we were white.
[00:12:47] Speaker C: We just didn't.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: And it's like, you're not really grappling with the real issue when you become obsessed on race as the sole determinant.
[00:12:56] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I agree with that. But we should be obsessed about poverty.
[00:13:00] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: And from a Christian perspective, poverty is not a bad thing. So I might differentiate there between poverty and destitution.
[00:13:09] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Okay. How would you describe.
Because typically we'd say destitute is you've got nowhere to live. Is that what you.
[00:13:16] Speaker C: Yeah, well, literally that, like so many families, they couldn't really say, I have a home because there's multiple generations in the house.
You know, like, there are people that maybe they've got a home, but they've. They're not paying their rent. They're constantly in a state of fight or flight because they know that they're owing.
You know, they owe whatever they owe. And they. And they're trapped. They're stuck. There's nowhere out. They don't have friends and family. You know, if your parents have a home, you're more likely to own a home. They don't have parents who own home. In fact, it's intergenerational poverty.
And so, yeah, I will use the term poverty, but I guess we really probably talk about destitution because we are called, in a way to a life of poverty, to giving up what we Can. But we're not called to destitution anyway, so you got this idea of poverty and you've got, I think, a growing, like the gap between the poor and the rich in New Zealand, it's just. It's unbelievable, like. And so many of us live in this funny little world where we don't actually see it, that poverty. You might see it when you go to pack and save and someone sitting outside with the sign or.
I was there the other day and watched some people camp out the door with a, you know, a trolley full of food.
[00:14:55] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:14:55] Speaker C: Might see it in spaces, but it's.
For most of us, we're not confronted with it, like it, you know, sort of daily. But anyway, it's there and it's growing, it's massive. And I think it's the primary cause for a lot of our.
A lot of crimes. And you can argue and say, you know, just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to rape somebody or just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to, you know, whatever it is.
[00:15:22] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:15:23] Speaker C: And that's true.
There's certainly many people who are poor and don't do those things.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: For our family, we didn't do that. But there was a Christian virtue.
[00:15:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And sometimes it's, you know, how's the saying, you know, but by the grace of God. Yeah, there go I.
But also it's still.
It still doesn't take away the fact that poverty is still the main contributor to all of this. Anyway, so how to fix it? I don't really have a solid plan, but my thinking is that a couple of things could happen. One is when men and women go to jail, they essentially can hide from the world.
[00:16:12] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:16:13] Speaker C: And they can.
Regardless of what. You know, some. Some crimes are embarrassing, so some crimes are child pedophilia or a level of shame. Yeah. There's a level of shame that. That even in jail, they kind of gotta hide. They're separated out because they can get. The guys that do. Certain crimes are on the top, you know, the bottom of the food pile.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:36] Speaker C: If you've offended against a child or woman, then you tend to be, you know, way out the bottom of the food pile. And if you're a killer, a murderer, you're at the top of the food pile.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. It's kind of weird then.
[00:16:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. In the end, they're all horrific and they all leave a trail of bloody debris in society.
So. Yeah. Let me gather my thoughts for a second.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: So there's a hierarchy in jail. They escape from the world.
[00:17:10] Speaker C: It's the hidden life of a prisoner. And I think that people who have been convicted of crimes and are sentenced to a time of jail, which is a separation from community, I think they should be more visible to community.
I think they should be more visible to community because I think the community need to actually own the fact that there are people out there that are in desperate need. And yeah, they're dickheads and they've done some horrific stuff, but we need to own that this is symptomatic of the community that we're in.
It's a fruit of what we live in. We've got to own that a little bit. But also I think that there are people out there that think, who cares? I just go to jail for a little bit, bounce in and out. But there's no social.
What's the word? Accountability.
[00:18:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:18:04] Speaker C: So how do you do that? The only way I've really thought about it is to almost go back to chain gangs.
Sounds horrific. I'm not saying chain gangs, like the old school stuff.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: We should say your wife was like, ah, Sarah does not like this at all.
So you say chain gangs.
[00:18:27] Speaker C: I say. Say that there is a. It costs us. I think when I was working there, the stat at the time was it costs the New Zealand taxpayer.
I think it was either 110 or $120,000 a year per person in jail.
And so it's like, mate, there's some labor there that could be going into community work. Like actually get out on the streets and do some work around the place.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:58] Speaker C: Even roading, it could. A whole lot of things.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: So in your mind, though, this is not punitive. You're not. It's not. You're breaking rocks because we want to punish you.
[00:19:07] Speaker C: No, it's.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: We want exposure to the community. Is that what you said?
[00:19:10] Speaker C: We want both exposure to the community and that everyone that gets. And look, here's the complications. You got a guy that kills somebody, that family, like, you bring him back out into community where he's visible.
[00:19:22] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: There's an angry family, and rightly so, that wants to see him dead. Well, you can't put him back into the same community, but you could put him, you know, he offends in the north island, you put him in the South Island.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: So he still has to be. They all have to be wearing orange, whatever it is.
We do have an ability, you know, like the ankle bracelets that we use these days, there's weaknesses in them. And the Guys know how to exploit them, but technology is so good. I actually think that there's room to put a bit of money into developing some clever ankle bracelets that are almost impossible to get off and are waterproof and.
[00:20:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: I mean, our phones are so good at tracking us.
[00:20:06] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:06] Speaker C: The modern, you know, like we could modernize our ankle bracelets a little bit better.
[00:20:10] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: And that people almost immediately. And I'm not talking about people with like severe mental health. Like, I think we really need to wrap around them in a different way. Yeah, of course.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: And so these are not your highest extreme dangers of community offenders either, are they? They're not some serial killer working in the jail.
[00:20:29] Speaker C: No, maybe not. Maybe. Yes, but maybe they.
Maybe you have levels in terms of where they're working, maybe. Which they. I know in a jail situation, some jails, like, I'm pretty sure Waikeria has a farm that the guys can work on.
[00:20:43] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: They often have an out program, I think too, in a lot of jails, only the final stages where you actually can sort of do some community work.
[00:20:51] Speaker C: So a low risk. I think it's normally low risk, so maybe a really high risk. But I still think that, I still think even your high risk guys somehow need to be.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: So these chain gangs would be out.
[00:21:03] Speaker C: Everywhere, the community, all over New Zealand.
You get sentenced and then you're out and you're working. And there's two parts there. One is. So straight away, all day long. Yeah, straight away, straight away.
As soon as they're sentenced, you know, you've got three years and you're out.
[00:21:19] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:20] Speaker C: And let's just say for now, I mean, there'd be a multi. Multitude of jobs that would be beneficial to society. But let's say it's roadworks.
[00:21:28] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: Obviously there's fly on effect and we'll talk about that in a sec. But let's say it's roadworks all day long. You're driving around the country and you're seeing gangs of people in orange.
[00:21:40] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: And. And as the community, you know that they're offenders and they know, you know.
[00:21:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:21:46] Speaker C: And most people that I've talked to have come out of jail. The last thing that they want you to know is that they were in jail.
[00:21:52] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: They come out and they're trying to hide. They're not. There's a. Even the guys that are killers or whatever, for the most part, they're not keen for it to be, you know, they don't want people, they don't want people. People to know they can Hide. But I think actually your face has to just be out there and you're in community. I wonder.
I have no evidence, but I wonder if it would slowly, over time, decrease recidivism. Because you've got men and women that go, the last thing I want to be is back on that road where everyone drives past and stares at me.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: So you're thinking shame as a.
A deterrent.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Yeah, essentially. Yeah. Sounds terrible, but yeah. So let's start there.
[00:22:39] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:22:40] Speaker C: There's a flow and effect with the type of work because you don't want it to impact people who are employed in those sectors or exploited.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: If a state goes, you know what, here's a cheap source of labor.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: Yeah. But we're paying them. We're essentially paying $120,000 a year to do nothing. So let's actually work. And. And then there's a second little part to that, is most men and women who are in jail actually feel an obligation or a desire to work. They feel like they owe, even if they're shitty or narcissistic or out of it. Often when you dig down. Not everyone, but the vast majority I found, just. They feel like the only way they can pay back society is to work.
And they'd say, we just sat around doing nothing. Far better if I could have just done something.
[00:23:27] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:23:28] Speaker C: Just worked, just labored. Just did something. Because we know as Christians, there's a dignity in labor.
[00:23:33] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:23:36] Speaker C: In a way, we're almost saved through that, through our works. And I know that's not right, but it's.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: We're not plagians.
[00:23:43] Speaker C: No, no, no. But. But there's something in labor.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: There's something about human. Human flourishing and the saving of a person from a sense of despair and meaninglessness.
[00:23:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: If you have a dignity in whatever you do.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: Yeah. And so make the work honorable, dignified work, proper work.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Well, they're not slave laborers, then. Well, the chain gang invoked slave labourers.
[00:24:06] Speaker C: Yeah. And I. And I use the. Maybe I shouldn't have said chain gang, but I try to start a picture.
[00:24:11] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:24:12] Speaker C: That you've got gangs of people that are out in community and are laboring. They're not.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: They go back to prison at night.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: Is that how it works? I don't think that's possible. You're gonna have to have. Instead of having massive prisons all over. You know, not all over. Like six or seven big prisons around the country, you've now got, like, basically small containment centers.
[00:24:36] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Speaker C: Everywhere.
You just don't have this massive. Because I think that's part of the problem where you got, like hundreds of men or women caged up in this one place.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: It's like factory farming. A bad company.
[00:24:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Like, they're just. You've got massive amount of bullying, massive amount of hierarchy, massive amount. Like access to drugs, gang recruitments.
You want to break all that up and you want these men and women out and doing something. It doesn't have to be on the road. There's other. I just think there's a million different things you could come up with. Just using that as an example. I mean, it could be trapping, you know, our pests.
[00:25:19] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:25:20] Speaker C: Whatever it is.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: So you could go bush for probably, what, a couple of months or something with supplies maybe.
[00:25:24] Speaker C: Yeah. And I know everyone goes, oh, yeah, they'll just run away or, oh, yeah, the guards are going to get all beaten up and killed or something. So there's all sorts of that, you know, depending on what the job is, depending on which people you put in that crew, depending on. You've got to have a really clever way of.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: You'd have to have arms guards then, wouldn't you?
[00:25:42] Speaker C: Maybe, maybe not. I don't see.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:25:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm not all of that. I haven't. Kind of like, how do you do that? I mean, tasers are pretty effective, but is that enough? I don't know. Anyway, I actually think that a lot of the guys, even the really violent ones, given dignity and some kind of work, tend to respond to that quite well.
[00:26:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: The real. The ones that are real dangerous, I find, are the ones that are mentally unhinged.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: And so a psych eval would be part of the process. So if you're evaluated to be.
[00:26:17] Speaker C: We need to be really.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: We couldn't put you out in the public.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:20] Speaker A: Now, if I'm a member of the.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Public, the typical reaction is going to be, nah, there's a threat to public safety. If you've got these criminals out in the community, how do you respond to that? How do you navigate that.
[00:26:34] Speaker C: I would wonder. And I don't know. I don't know what that, because I don't know if it's been trialled. I think that the greater threat to society is the higher rates of recidivism.
[00:26:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: Like that they go. They spend their few years in jail and they head out. And within a year, like, I think the rates when I was first working with this outfit is selling like, you know, like 80%.
[00:26:59] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:26:59] Speaker C: Which means that the public are being hurt. If somebody is going out and offending again, they've offended again against somebody.
So what you're trying to do is lower the rates of recidivism. So what part of this is my thinking is by getting them out and working, by giving them a certain type of dignity, by making it public and the community going, okay, these people are not ostracized and hidden away. They are actually part of our community. They can be useful members of community if we. Because it means that we have to show a certain respect to them as a. Give them a certain dignity. When they're in jail, you can just say those, yeah, whatever, those whatever piece of shit. That human beings can just be locked away forever and never want to see them again. But it's not a good way to see a human being. It's not a good way to stop recidivism anyway. So that's the first part of it. And obviously a million things around that, that immediately red flags and that. But that's the first part. The second part is that let's say a man goes to jail for whatever it is, violence.
Then part of our response, and I know there's a cost to this, but part of our response now has to be if it's going to deal with poverty, has to be that we work out the members of his family.
And as soon as he's in jail, there's a group of people that walk in and say, okay, wife, kids, people in the household that he was in.
Let's begin to work with you to raise you out of poverty.
What do we need to do? Maybe it's to start off on a slightly higher benefit. Like actually, because a lot of these people, you know, like, I think there's a false idea. Well, it's not a false idea. We get a bit worried about benefit state. But a lot of the people that are really poor, they're almost getting nothing because they've either used up what they can get or they don't know how to get it.
They're so all over the place in terms of bank accounts or cell phones or addresses. They're not even getting the benefits that people even available to them. Yeah, like so many people that we worked with, like, it's like, mate, why aren't you on the just getting a doll? And they're like, I can't. Right. You know, I don't even know how to get a doll.
[00:29:29] Speaker D: Yeah, okay.
[00:29:30] Speaker C: You know, like, it's, it's such a funny thing, but anyway, I'm not a big fan of just doling out benefits, but I think whatever it takes to begin with, you've targeted the family that surround this guy or girl that's gone to jail. And you do everything you can in terms of housing, work, health, teeth, everything you can to raise that person out of that destitution and to put them on that little group of family. Because then what happens is the guy that's in jail, when he gets out, he doesn't return to poverty.
Now some people go, ah, people are going to just offend so that their family get a hand up. But we're going to have to be better at actually just saying to people, you know, we need to give you a hand up. Anyway, communities need to wrap around and we need, we do need to somehow find a way to, you know, to raise people out of poverty. But I actually don't think, to be honest, people aren't. They might get one or two, but you're not going to get heaps of people going, I'm going to go to jail so that my family actually get help. When the family can just roll up and say, hey, we need help, help.
[00:30:39] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: But I think there has to be a two pronged attack and that it, that you need to actually wrap around the, those who are his, his or his main support and raise them up. And the other side is they need to, the actual offender needs to be somehow more public.
[00:31:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: In terms of what they give back to community.
So out in the work and in terms of being visible.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: The one thing that strikes me though is it seems this is a very state driven sort of intervention. You know, the state is the mechanism and it feels like we've tried this and it doesn't work. There's a whole sense of community and meaning in connectedness at a local level that's missing.
[00:31:32] Speaker C: Yeah. So going back to. We're not organizing like seven big prisons.
[00:31:37] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: You'll have a, for lack of a better term, a barrack, a home, whatever it is, in almost every town.
[00:31:48] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: And I think that the local council overseas, whoever it is that goes into there and says, okay, our parks need to tidy up this week. You know, like they line up all the work and those people are working in that community for three years or two years, you know, and I get it, you have to be careful about where you place people and who you place. But they're managed at a local level and somehow. And because they become after a while. Well, I think what happens as well is, you know, you see as a, if you live in Teo Muru and you're seeing the same working Group every day you become less afraid of them. I think when a lot of people are really afraid of offenders as well, it's like, oh, they're going to kill me. Most people aren't going to kill you. Most people come out of poverty.
Most people have been abused themselves and are just trying to find a way forward or are attracting gangs, whatever it is.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: How do you break that factor up, though? Because the gangs are obviously going to be poverty, so.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: No, no, because what you've done is broken out all of those big prison areas where you've got heaps of gang influence. You've put everyone into smaller groups.
And I think that this is. Again, it's just a theory.
Women are so abused in gangs.
[00:33:20] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:33:21] Speaker C: That you get a guy. Often it's the guy that goes to jail, he's a gang guy, and he.
What do you call it? Gets sent off.
But she's trapped. She has nothing. She's trying to raise three kids by radio. Raising her up out of poverty. I think there'd be a lot of women that go, I don't actually need to be around the gang anymore. And then what happens is the men who are in the gangs go, wait on. There's no girls here anymore. Oh, yeah, These gangs just become men. Yeah. And no woman. Yeah. And then suddenly it's like diarrhea, you know, like. Yeah. There's kind of like a sort.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: It's no longer a family.
[00:34:07] Speaker D: That's what you're saying.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: We're a mimicking of a family.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: That's right. And they're not getting the thing that they want, like which. Most of those, you know, the gangs where they're really at their full height, like women are just dogs.
[00:34:20] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:34:21] Speaker C: You know, like treated awful. Yeah, yeah. But remove women out of the gang equation and what have they got? They've just got a club of men. And yeah, they're ruthless. And, yeah, they're probably still doing drugs and stuff, but if there's no woman around and the woman aren't interested in the woman, don't have any reason to rely on these guys anymore, what are the guys gonna do?
Most guys don't want to hang around if there's no woman.
[00:34:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Okay. Anyway, breaking up the. What you see as the. The natural glue that holds a gang together, as the appeal of sexual glass attraction to the opposite sex.
[00:34:58] Speaker C: Well, I think. Oh, sexual. Not even attraction, just abuse.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. But they actually do that.
[00:35:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
But I. I just wonder. Look, it's a. The whole thing is Just a big messy idea.
[00:35:12] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:35:14] Speaker C: And full of, you know, not. You just can't think through everything there. But it's, you know, can you.
You know, by raising our families, giving them the actual, you know, the means to exit out of poverty.
Like, I've watched people who were. It's quite strange. Like they.
They're caught in that world of poverty and the way they speak to each other is awful.
They speak to each other, you know, the language is terrible.
The abuse is terrible. It's all there, right on the lips. But I've watched, in some cases, I've been part of it, you know, where women especially have been pulled out of that and given a chance and they've managed to find work or at least get their kids around them and started the process to getting out of that real destitution.
[00:36:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:19] Speaker C: And what I found interesting, their language changes.
Talking the way they talk about themselves. Yeah. But no, even just the way they speak, like they. When you're in real destitution, it's almost like, you know, like it's real single syllable.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: They just. It's the most guttural bass.
[00:36:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get this horrible way of being a human person. You find some kind of dignity. And I've even had. I've heard women say to me, it's weird. I speak differently now.
[00:36:53] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:36:56] Speaker C: Because it's always there. It's not like they're not exposed to just normal language, but it's like they embrace the. Being an animal.
[00:37:09] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: So there's an animalistic tendency that comes out of the dehumanization, the lack of respect for their human dignity.
[00:37:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: Just manifest it. Eventually, if you stick around for long enough, you become that thing.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: You become the thing. Yeah. Anyway, I just wonder how. How could it. How could you do it? How could you do it? Where these people who are offenders are out neighboring and they're still going to need all the counseling in the world and all the help that they can get so that they don't go back to jail.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Okay, so here's an interesting question. Isn't a prison a very convenient way of grouping a whole lot of people together in one place behind four walls? That is the most cost effective way of keeping the community safe.
[00:37:54] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Because you're talking about multiplying.
[00:37:57] Speaker C: That's right.
But I would say yes and no. Because that system, you could argue in the short term, yes, but it's a failing system that the rates of recidivism are so high that the system perpetuates a Cycle of abuse and violence.
So over the course of time. No, it's just.
It would be the cheapest way if everyone who left jail never came back to jail.
[00:38:28] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:38:30] Speaker C: And it would be the cheap. Because think about how many people. That's not happening at all.
Yeah, it's only getting worse. And so then the costs are escalating because when somebody reoffends, then think about the judges and the lawyers and the police and the victims and the victim help and support and every, you know, part of society that we have to kind of step in and try and work with. What's with that re offense?
It's massive. The cost is massive.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: It's a false economy.
[00:39:05] Speaker C: It's a false economy.
[00:39:06] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: It's not working. So we've got to be brave at some point and try something or do something different.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: But does that mean. Then I go back to my thesis of earlier, that it's the state that has failed here, the liberal state has failed. So someone else would need to take responsibility. The government would need to say, well, we actually need to outsource beyond bureaucrats. We need to start considering, for example, the role of the church.
[00:39:30] Speaker C: Maybe they'd have to. I would worry that the government did what they did with Surrey and Auckland. Surrey, Is it Surrey? What's the name of the Auckland prison? I've got that wrong. Surrey's the apple thing.
[00:39:42] Speaker B: Anyway, I was like, what sort of Surrey dirt.
[00:39:45] Speaker C: I have to look that up. It's gonna bug me anyway.
It's a privatized government will say, why don't we privatise?
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah, okay.
[00:39:54] Speaker C: Because it's so hard, say, for a church. There's so much involved just for a church to kind of roll in and take over that like. Yes, it would be idea if communities got involved. But I just wonder if you. Maybe you push it down to local level government. That's what I mean.
[00:40:09] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:40:09] Speaker C: In smaller places, rather than the big government or the privatization that's happened in the Auckland jail means that I think it's. Again, I'll get corrected, I'm sure. But when I was working, which was three or four years ago, there was something like one prisoner. No, sorry, one guard to 160 prisoners. Which meant if you were trying to organize a lawyer or get help with your case or get help with just help. Yeah, forget about it. Forget about it. There's only one guard to 160 guys. And like the stories of guys would be like, you just stand in a queue as soon as you had your break, when you were allowed to Go and see, go and speak to a guard. You'd have to stand in line. And the chances of even seeing that guy because the break was over before the first, you know, first 10 guys might see him.
[00:41:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: And he's so overworked and crazy. There's nothing. They're basically in this, in the most silent world, in some ways completely shut off and no help and they just come out and rent.
[00:41:19] Speaker B: Unbelievable. So whatever the outcome is, there needs to be a heroic and bold reimagining.
[00:41:29] Speaker C: Of what so like. And my idea, it's got so many flaws and I'm not, I'm not pretending like it's.
But. But we do. People need to start imagining now what could, what could be different? How do we do this differently? Yeah, that actually, you know, just. Yeah. Just changes that.
That level of poverty or destitution in New Zealand that gives people dignity, gives people a place in society.
Yeah.
Gangs aren't a hard thing to work out. You know, all of that.
But it does require community to kind of be able to see. Yeah.
[00:42:19] Speaker B: So it's hope and hard work, right?
[00:42:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a good way.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: And we don't the other two things. Well, hope we sort of like. But hard work we don't really like as much. We like quite high quick silver bullet solutions.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: We don't want to see them. Yeah, it's too messy to see these people. We don't want to see them. But community need to actually see these people and see them as a part of, you know, the good work going on in the community.
Graffiti getting rubbed off walls, trees being planted along riverbeds, whatever it is. And you know, you're getting guys that are learning trades, learning skills, guys and girls who are in these work groups that actually, because one of the things I notice that guys coming out of jail, they say they want to work, but they've been in jail for 10 years and they haven't worked an eight hour day for 10 years.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: And they don't know how to.
[00:43:14] Speaker C: They don't know how to. It's too hard. Yeah, way too hard. It's actually really hard. Like I noticed it with my teenage son who's gone to work. It's a big effort. Like he's exhausted for a month as he's getting used to getting out the door by. You know, school's not the same as working.
You know, like an eight, nine hour day of labor is actually takes work very different. Yeah. Yeah. So you.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: So we've got a system that's broken. It needs to be fixed.
[00:43:43] Speaker C: Yeah mate, you come up with some ideas. If your listeners got some better ideas, they'll be fascinated to you.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: On that note, let's say good night.
[00:43:56] Speaker C: Good night.
[00:43:59] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in. I really hope you enjoyed this episode. And don't forget, live by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies. And I'll see you next time on the Dispatchers.
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