[00:00:00] Hi everybody. Welcome along to another episode of the Dispatchers podcast. My name is Brendan Malone. It is great to be back with you again and today's topic of conversation what is the Christian teaching on civil disobedience?
[00:00:16] Hi, my name is Brendan Malone and you're listening to the Dispatchers, the podcast that strives to cut through all the noise in order to challenge the popular narratives of the day with some good old fashioned contrarian thinking. You might not always agree, but at least you'll be taking a deeper look at the world around you.
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[00:00:55] And also it's really helpful if you just share by word of mouth. If you find an episode or a piece of commentary that's been written to be quite enjoyable or helpful or insightful in some way, then please share and share alike. The more of that that happens, the better. A huge thank you to all of our patrons. It's thanks to you that today's episode is made possible, and I will post links for both the Patreon page and also our substack page and in the show notes for today's episode. Alrighty. So what is the Christian teaching on civil disobedience? And the reason I thought I would talk about this issue is because there is currently serious unrest in Los Angeles, which has now been taking place for almost a week. I think we're up to day seven as of right now. But basically this started when about six or seven days ago. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which is colloquially known as ICE, conducted law enforcement raids to enforce the U.S. border. And the unrest seems to have started after they began enforcement operations which focused on businesses which were suspected of employing illegal immigrants. Now, before we delve into the actual Christian teaching on civil disobedience, some things that I think are important to note in this particular circumstance. First, first of all, there initially actually seems to have been peaceful protests, which then devolved into the violence which is now playing out in the streets of la.
[00:02:23] And I think what seems to have happened, if I understand the reporting correctly, and it does seem that it's still a little murky, it's not entirely clear because the situation is still in flux, but it seems that hostile agitators attached themselves to these protests. But either way there was actually legitimate peaceful protest happening. And I think it's important to keep that in mind, at the forefront of your mind and to make that important distinction. A protester is not the same as someone who is a violent agitator. It's also clear that serious violence and destruction has actually unfolded on the streets of LA over the past week. So this is not just isolated or one off incidents. It is a pattern of behaving that has become widespread and has really effectively got out of control. Like when you're area is now under a curfew to try and curb the violence and the destruction that's going on, you know that things are pretty serious. And I say that because there's clearly some people who have tried to downplay this or pretend that it's not really that big a deal. It is quite a serious issue. And I would dare to suggest that if any of us were actually living in that particular region where this is unfolding, we would not be sitting there thinking, oh, this is fine, there's no big deal. And I think one thing also that's really important to remember here is that that it's not really the more wealthy communities that are going to be affected the hardest by this. It's actually the more impoverished communities and it's the people who supposedly these agitators are claiming they are there to defend and protect that are probably the ones who are going to feel the worst effects of what's gone on here and the destruction and everything else that's going on in their community.
[00:04:06] Now another thing to note here is that the Christian church is very clear in her teaching that that nations have the right to enforce and maintain control of their borders, especially when the common good of a host nation is threatened by the actions of foreigners crossing into that nation. And that includes economic wellbeing and also the maintaining of a peaceful civil order for the citizens and those who have legally entered the country. We often forget about those people in all of this. Now this enforcement on the flip side must be moral and and always show respect for the dignity of the human persons who might have illegally entered the host nation. So they can't just be treated like animals even if they have illegally entered another nation. Their human dignity must be respected even as you carry out law enforcement. Now, I'm not going to reenact or go back through a previous podcast episode where I've covered this in far greater detail. I will put the link for that specific episode in the show notes for today as well. So, so go back and have a Listen to that. It's a very lengthy podcast which unpacks all of the moral issues and the Christian teaching regarding immigration and border control.
[00:05:21] Now, this podcast today is also not about the morality of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement actions. I'm not going to provide any sort of critique on that or any sort of examination of that either way, in any direction, pro or conversation, because basically I simply don't know enough to really make a properly informed judgment about all of this. And I actually suspect that a lot of people are in exactly the same boat as I am. I think what tends to happen in these kinds of situations is a pre existing bias will cause people to look and see what they want to see and ignore other things. And that's happening on both sides. And, and so if they really love Trump and they think that he can do no wrong, then these raids, as far as they're concerned, are totally justified and they will brook no dissent and no criticism. On the flip side, those who dislike Trump, they think that these raids are a great evil. They are an existential crisis. This is like a foreshadowing of what happened in Nazi Germany in their minds. And so what tends to happen is people bring that particular bias or view to the issue and, and then they effectively read that into what's going on. But I suspect that a lot of people are actually also in the same boat as me, that they just don't have a good enough grasp of what's actually going on on the ground there.
[00:06:49] They don't have all of the details about everything that's happening. And so therefore we're not really well informed enough to make a clear, concrete judgment call about all of this. And I should also say that that's not the emphasis of this podcast. So I'm not trying to avoid that question.
[00:07:06] It's just a, I don't feel competent and qualified enough to actually make a clear call in either direction. And secondly, that's not actually the focus of this episode. The focus of this episode instead is on the question of the Christian teaching regarding civil disobedience. So let's imagine this was actually, as some people are presenting it, an illegitimate, immoral action on the part of the U.S. government. And you want to respond to that. What does the Christian church have to say about our response to this particular issue? Now, one important thing to note here, though, in the midst of all of this, is that you can have a situation where you have a morally legitimate law enforcement action that is taking place.
[00:07:50] So the actual underpinning, the reason for that law Enforcement action is good and it is sound, and therefore the action is totally morally acceptable. But, but at the same time, you can also, within such an action, see incidents which aren't morally acceptable. A really good example of this, I think, would be something like World War II. And it is fair to say that World War II would meet the criteria for a just war.
[00:08:20] However, within World War II, there were lots of different skirmishes and battles and actions and incidents that actually took place. And some of those incidents were, were absolutely immoral and should not ever be condoned. And I'm talking about from the allies here, from our side in that particular conflict. And so even though you can have a law enforcement action that is morally justified, you can also have within that action specific incidents or specific actions or aspects of it that are not moral. So it actually is morally okay to enforce your own border controls and border security. And you might have a situation, and it seems that that is the case in America, where you need to do.
[00:09:03] But then you might have certain actions that you carry out in the process of trying to secure your border which are not morally good. And so they don't become justified just because they are part of a morally acceptable action.
[00:09:16] And also at the same time, those immoral incidents that can take place, or also you can have genuine mistakes that happen in a morally legitimate enforcement action. So, for example, the police come to a riot situation, let's say after a rock concert or something, and they start arresting the offenders who are engaging in violent actions. And then in that process, they mistakenly arrest an innocent man who was just there. He was just a street vendor trying to sell food outside the concert, and he was fleeing from what was going on, and the police mistook him for one of the main perpetrators and they accidentally arrest him. That is an accidental incident that happens. That's not good. And, and it's not just that he's treated in that way. However, the actual action of the police and their law enforcement was totally just and was justified and acceptable what they were doing there. And so you can have mistakes, or you can have incidents or actions that are not moral. And those things, they don't therefore make the actual overarching action immoral in and of itself. So just because you have a law enforcement situation where something happens that is not moral, that doesn't mean that everything is invalidated. It doesn't mean that suddenly it was not moral for them to enforce and maintain border security, or that it wasn't moral for them to actually carry out and conduct law enforcement actions that are intended to protect the common good and secure the border and ensure that the population at large actually is able to live in a just, stable, peaceful, civil order. Now some specifics about the LA situation too, before we go any further.
[00:10:57] As I said, we're up to about day six or seven now of violence and criminal destruction of property in Los Angeles. And that has included, for those who might not be aware, protesters vandalising and setting fire to at least five self driving vehicles. And by the way, any of this damage here, again, this is not the protesters who are going to end up paying for this I would imagine in most of these circumstances.
[00:11:21] It's actually the people themselves in LA who, who are funding and going to have to provide the money that is necessary to fix any of this damage that's done to public property and also business owners and others and even homeowners potentially who are gonna lose out in this process.
[00:11:37] So this is not a good thing that's happening here at all. And the burden of this is absolutely going to fall upon the actual people themselves. So what you've got is this situation where people are claiming in the name of the people they're doing these things, but in actual fact they are harming the very people they are claiming to act on behalf of here. They've also defaced public and private buildings with graffiti, including things like anti ICE messages. They have damaged infrastructure such as street planters and benches in LA's Grand Park. There have been assaults on law enforcement, so rioters have been throwing rocks. And I've seen some footage which is very clearly potentially deadly. Throwing of like concrete cinder blocks from an overbridge onto traffic. We've had incidents of that here in New Zealand where people have actually been killed as a result of that very action.
[00:12:31] People throwing bottles, concrete scooters and Molotov cocktails at police and ICE officers. So it's not just ICE officers, but also the police. And there was also an incident where over 1000 individuals surrounded a federal law enforcement building.
[00:12:47] I think this happened on the 7th of June according to media reports.
[00:12:50] And there was assaulting of officers and slashing of tyres and things like that going on. There's also been looting and property damage. There's been multiple stores targeted, including shoe stores, jewellery stores and also an Apple retailer. You might have seen the footage of that. They've all been looted. There have been businesses in areas like Little Tokyo and South Broadway who have suffered a lot of property damage, things like broken windows and other forms of damage. And so far I think we're up to Over a hundred arrests have been made. That's what the media reports seem to indicate, with charges ranging from vandalism and looting, which you'd obviously expect, but also things like failure to disperse, assault on officers and even attempted murder. So this has actually got quite serious. Now, as I said in response to this, there has been a curfew implemented in downtown Los Angeles from June 10 to curb further violence. And as a result of that, you've also had people arrested and charged for curfew violations.
[00:13:49] So what has been the public reaction from local LA residents? Well, some residents and shopkeepers have expressed support for the protesters underlying cause, but at the same time they and others within LA have also condemned the violence and the destruction. You might have seen that video that has gone viral of the local LA resident, a black woman who is trying to get herself to work and traffic is being blocked by a group of protesters and she has this engagement with these two white people, a white man and a white woman who are blocking traffic and she says, look, I need to get to work, I need to feed my family, I need to pay my bills. What about me? I need to get to work. And they just ridicule her. And in fact the guy mocks even the idea of her going to work. And this video's gone viral. So a lot of people locally obviously not happy about what's gone on. And I imagined if you're someone who's been on the victim end of this, you would be really distraught about the way in which you've been treated. Now I'm not going to go into any great detail, but I just want to briefly touch on the question of the President actually mobilizing the National Guard for this domestic purpose to try and restore domestic security within Los Angeles. And the way in which some people seem to be talking about it, they are saying this has never happened before or this is like a portent of something far worse. This is not typical to American history and it's a sign of an authoritarian overreach. In actual fact, this is not an aberration at all. I went and double checked this this morning. There have been at least 12 different US presidents who have mobilised the National Guard from 1794 right up to 2025. And a lot of these have been recent as well. They're not things that are in the dark, distant past, the original founding of the nation. So sure, George Washington was one of those who put down the Whiskey Rebellion, but then you've also got Bill Clinton, George Bush, both Bushes, actually Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy. Did It. Eisenhower did it. So this is not actually an aberration. And in fact, the majority of the cases are actually in the last hundred years or so, or in fact, within the last 80 years or so. So this is actually not unusual. And I think that's worth noting in all of this. Now, you can debate the merits of whether that was necessary or not.
[00:16:10] My personal instinct, though, is that if I was living in LA right now, witnessing what was unfolding, I would be quite happy that my president had actually brought the National Guard to bear to restore just stable and peaceful civil order. You don't have a common good when this kind of stuff is going on. And so it is absolutely the responsibility of the highest authorities in the land to ensure the protection and wellbeing of their citizens. And if certain elements go rogue and get out of hand and go into extreme territory, like this group have done here, and it is extreme because there is a curfew in place to try and curb the violence. That's how serious things have got. And that's not something Donald Trump did, that was done by the local authorities. So that gives you a sense of the gravity of what's going on here. So my instinct is that I would be happy for this to be happening if I was living there. And I think most people, if they're honest, would actually prefer that the government acted to restore order to, in the midst of violence and chaos of this particular scale and nature.
[00:17:15] Now, I've seen people defending the actions, or some of the actions taking place in LA as simply a very forceful expression of civil disobedience. And it's that particular response that has caused me to say, hey, why don't we actually explore what the Christian Church actually teaches about civil disobedience? Because it's not really something we talk about much, but I think it's a valuable tradition to draw from and to consider in light of what we see happening here and this increasing, I think, call for civil disobedience that we're now seeing in response in particular to Donald Trump. But not just there, other places of the Western world as well. We're seeing this type of response, and it seems worthy to explore. Well, what actually is the Christian understanding of civil disobedience? What does it have to say about these issues?
[00:18:08] Now, I'm gonna be drawing predominantly from the Catholic tradition in this episode, but at the same time, I don't think that too many other denominations would have any major issues with this, because this is a tradition and a teaching that goes all the way back and has its roots in St. Augustine, for example. So I don't think any other denominations would say, oh, no, that's completely beyond the pale. I think that they would in fact say, yeah, that is a pretty fair presentation of the Christian vision of reality and how it should be outworked. So, first of all, and this is a very important point, the Church recognizes that there may actually be circumstances where civil disobedience is not only permissible, but actually necessary, particularly if you've got a situation where a government's laws or commands or actions contradict the moral law or the teachings of the Church. So this is really, really important to note up front. It's not a hard fast no to civil disobedience.
[00:19:01] There is actually permissible civil disobedience. And in fact, it's not just at times permissible, but at times it may actually be a necessity. How does this all play out? Well, first of all, we have an obligation to follow just laws. The Church teaches that Christians have a moral obligation on them to follow any legitimate authority and the laws that they enact as long as these laws are just.
[00:19:29] And this is drawn from passages, there are a couple in the New Testament, but In particular, Romans 13, verses 1 and 2. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
[00:19:56] Here's how the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it in article 1898 and 1900. Every human community needs an authority to govern it. The duty of obedience requires all to give due honour to authority and to treat those who are charged to exercise it with respect and insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and goodwill.
[00:20:25] In fact, in the history of the Church, if we go all the way back to the time of Pope Saint Clement of Rome, who's someone who's living and governing the church around 88, 89 A.D. so very early in the life of the Church, Pope Saint Clement of Rome actually gives us the Church's most ancient prayer for political authorities. And here's what that prayer Grant them, Lord, health, peace, concord and stability, so that they may exercise without offence the sovereignty that you have given them.
[00:21:02] Master, heavenly King of the Ages, you give glory, honor and power over the things of earth to the sons of men, direct Lord, their counsel, following what is pleasing and acceptable in your sight, so that by exercising with devotion and in peace and gentleness, the power that you have given to them, they may find favour with you. So it's quite clear that Christianity does place a primacy on. On obeying lawful authorities and the lawful commands and laws and everything else that they enact.
[00:21:35] However, at the same time, there is also the priority of human conscience.
[00:21:41] So when civil authorities enact unjust laws that contravene the divine law or natural law, Christians are called to obey God first rather than the government.
[00:21:55] We see this in Acts 5:29, when Peter is before the Sanhedrin and he says to them, we must obey God rather than men.
[00:22:06] Now, imagine a situation whereby, let's say, your local government banned the practice of the Christian faith.
[00:22:14] That would be an unjust law and it would not be, in actual fact a good thing to prioritize that above the worship of God. So it would be right. And we'll explore why that is a bit more. There's a bit more of a detailed unpacking of that particular point that we'll get to in just a second. It would be right for you to disobey that, because that law actually has no binding force upon you. It's an unjust law.
[00:22:40] Here's how the Catechism of the Catholic church in Article 2242 puts it. The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons, or the teachings of the Gospel.
[00:22:59] Refusing obedience to civil authorities when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community.
[00:23:11] Render, therefore, to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. And that's obviously a direct quote from Christ in the Gospels. And then they also go on to quote Acts here as well. We must obey God rather than men. When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good.
[00:23:43] But it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the law of the Gospel. So, in other words, even when there are moments where civil disobedience might be morally permissible, it doesn't mean that anything goes. And in actual fact you still are obliged to give regard to lawful edicts that are asked of you by your government.
[00:24:13] It's just the unjust ones that are not binding upon you. And I think this is important to understand. So what it means is you don't end up in a situation where you say, oh, well, this government is now illegitimate and I don't have to obey anything that they tell me. I can drive on the other side of the road if I want to, I can break the speed limit if I want to. No, those things still have a binding force on our conscience, even if other things that the government is asking of us do not. Which is now where we get into the really important meat of all of this, the criteria of civil disobedience. Because for civil disobedience to be considered morally legitimate in the Christian tradition, then generally speaking, it must meet certain criteria. So first of all, the injustice must be clear.
[00:24:59] Non compliance must be the last resort. And the intent should be to uphold the moral law. And the action that we take should be non violent and respectful of others rights, so legitimate rights of others. And so I think this is really, really important and it's clear to see that what's gone on in LA has violated some of those things right there. Clearly the last one, there is violence going on and there has been a total disregard for the fundamental rights of others in respect for their basic dignity. There's an interesting paragraph in article 2243 which goes on to talk about armed resistance, because a lot of people today are talking about this whole idea of the legitimacy of forming armed resistance against the Trump government, and it's actually not as straightforward and clear cut as they're making it out to be in actual fact, certainly not in the Christian tradition. Here's what the Catechism says about that. Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate unless all of the following conditions are There is certain grave and prolonged violation of fundamental rights.
[00:26:13] All other means of redress have been exhausted. And if you're living in a democracy where you can still just vote the government out, then I'm sorry, you still have a means of redress that's actually available to you. Such resistance will not provoke worse disorders.
[00:26:28] There is well founded hope of success and it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution. So those criteria pretty much narrow down the scope massively as to when and if you could actually form armed resistance against a government. And you can see why, because as soon as you do that, the common good completely breaks down. Now we see examples of this very thing that we're talking about here, legitimate civil disobedience in our own Christian history, where various saints, martyrs and church leaders and lay people have provided plenty of really good examples of legitimate civil disobedience, such as resisting laws that have enforced slavery or abortion in euthanasia, where there's been the prohibition on the practice of the faith, or where, for example, even things like unjust punishments or sentences have been invoked upon people.
[00:27:28] St. Thomas More is one very often referenced example of this, but there are plenty of others that we could cite as well, and I think there's something relevant to consider here. I said earlier, remember, that we would actually explore this question of unjust and just laws in a bit more detail and their binding on our conscience. There's a really great couple of paragraphs in Evangelium Vitae, which is the Gospel of Life, which was an encyclical letter that was published by Pope John Paul II in 1995, and it focuses specifically on. On respect for human life, on the issues of abortion and euthanasia. And here's what he says in that particular encyclical about unjust laws. The doctrine on the necessary conformity of civil law with the moral law is in continuity with the whole tradition of the Christian Church. This is clear once more from Pope John Paul XXIII's encyclical Pacem Interis.
[00:28:28] And he says, this authority is a postulate of the moral order and derives from God. Consequently, laws and decrees enacted in contravention of the moral order and hence of the divine will can have no binding force in conscience. Indeed, the passing of such laws undermines the very nature of authority and results in shameful abuse.
[00:28:53] This is the clear teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas also, who writes that human law is law inasmuch as it is in conformity with right reason and thus derives from the eternal law. But when a law is contrary to reason, it is called an unjust law.
[00:29:12] In this case, it ceases to be a law and becomes instead an act of violence. And again, in another place, he says, every law made by man can be called a law insofar as it derives from the natural law. But if it is somehow opposed to the natural law, then it is not really a law, but rather a corruption of the law.
[00:29:38] Now, the first and most immediate application of this teaching concerns a human law which disregards the fundamental right and source of all other rights, which is the right to life, a right belonging to every individual.
[00:29:54] Consequently, laws which legitimise the direct killing of innocent human beings through abortion or euthanasia are in complete opposition to the inviolable right to life proper to every individual. They thus deny the equality of everyone before the law.
[00:30:12] It might be objected that such is not the case in euthanasia when it is requested with full awareness by the person involved.
[00:30:21] But any State which made such a request legitimate and authorised it to be carried out would be legalising a case of suicide, murder, contrary to the fundamental principles of absolute respect for life and of the protection of every innocent human life.
[00:30:37] In this way, the state contributes to lessening respect for life and opens the doors of to ways of acting which are destructive of trust in relations between people.
[00:30:50] Laws which authorise and promote abortion and euthanasia are therefore radically opposed not only to the good of the individual, but also to the common good. As such, they are completely lacking in authentic juridical validity.
[00:31:05] Disregard for the right to life, precisely because it leads to the killing of the person whom society exists to serve, is what most directly conflicts with the possibility of achieving the common good.
[00:31:19] Consequently, a civil law authorising abortion or euthanasia ceases by that very fact to be a true, morally binding civil law.
[00:31:30] Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimise.
[00:31:37] There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws. Instead, there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection.
[00:31:48] From the very beginnings of the Church, the apostolic preaching reminded Christians of their duty to obey legitimately constituted public authorities.
[00:31:58] But at the same time it firmly warned that we must obey God rather than men.
[00:32:05] In the Old Testament, precisely in regard to threats against life, we find a significant example of resistance to the unjust command of those in authority.
[00:32:16] After Pharaoh ordered the killing of all newborn males, the Hebrew midwives refused.
[00:32:22] They did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. And he's quoted there directly from Exodus, chapter one.
[00:32:31] But the ultimate reason for their action should be the midwives feared God.
[00:32:38] It is precisely from obedience to God, to whom alone is due that fear, which is acknowledgment of his absolute sovereignty, that the strength and the courage to resist unjust human laws are born. It is the strength and the courage of those prepared even to be imprisoned or put to the sword, the certainty that this is what makes for the endurance and faith of the saints. And that's a quote there from Revelation 13.
[00:33:07] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or to vote for it.
[00:33:24] And I think that's a pretty good summation. Now it's Focusing obviously there on the issue of abortion and euthanasia, but I think it's a pretty good summation of how laws are actually not legitimate laws if they are trying to bind us to do something that is gravely immoral and unjust. Here's another section from Guardium et Speis which was a document that was produced during the Second Vatican Council, and I think it seems quite relevant to the situation currently going on in the United States.
[00:33:53] Citizens must cultivate a generous and loyal spirit of patriotism, but without being narrow minded. This means that they will always direct their attention to the good of the whole human family, united by the different ties which bind together races, people and nations.
[00:34:13] All Christians must recognize the legitimacy of different opinions with regard to temporal solutions. So in other words, to things that are not the non negotiables like abortion and euthanasia, any deliberate killing of an innocent human person or slavery would be another example of this. That would be a non negotiable issue. But there are plenty of other issues where governments have to oversee our temporal affairs and there are prudential decisions which are not bound by non negotiable moral laws whereby they could go in a multitude potentially of different directions when deciding what the correct solution should be. All Christians must recognise the legitimacy of different opinions with regard to temporal solutions and respect citizens who even as a group, defend their points of view by honest methods. So in other words, there is nothing wrong with people publicly voicing opposition to something that they deem to be wrong, that they disagree with. With integrity and wisdom, political leaders must take action against any form of injustice and tyranny. They should dedicate themselves to the service of all with sincerity and fairness, indeed with the charity and fortitude demanded by political life.
[00:35:35] So hopefully that brings a bit of clarity to this particular issue in response to what's happening right now in America. And it won't be the first or the last time that this actually is the case.
[00:35:49] But I would say to you, be discerning truth has been on life support in the public square for quite some time now, and this latest incident that's unfolding in the US is yet another example of truth on life support. And there's plenty of things flying around all over social media, but in actual fact there's plenty of those things that are not true and it's coming from both sides of this issue. So be discerning, there has clearly been a lack of prudent and considered thought on both sides of this issue. And there is also a tendency, I think, as a result of that towards cheap vilification and emotionalism. And that's not really helpful. So be discerning, be prudent. There are actually valid arguments on both sides of this question and I think in order to avoid extremes in either direction, we need to accept that truth.
[00:36:45] And if we are people of faith, we must always remember that Christ and Christian truth comes first, not politics. And that's really, really important to keep at the forefront of our minds. But as I said, be discerning, be prudent. Recognize that there are actually good arguments that are really being made on both sides of this particular and I think we need to be open to that fact and we need to dialogue and engage with the issue itself rather than treating this like this guy is either the God King come down amongst us and therefore he can do no wrong, or he is Hitler reincarnated. Both of those are extremes. Both of them are wrong. And in actual fact there is plenty of room for dialogue. But it's got to begin with prudence and discernment and a willingness to take the heat out of the conversation by recognizing the human dignity of the other with whom we happen to be engaging.
[00:37:45] I don't pretend that this is going to magically solve all the problems, but I think at the very least we have an obligation, particularly those of us who are people of faith, to contribute using the fruits of the Spirit in our engagement on any of these issues. And I don't pretend to be the greatest example of this. I still struggle and flounder and fail on plenty of occasions myself. But I think we do need to do a level headed best to try and commit ourselves to being people of faith who represent and participate in the public square with a Christ like disposition. Where politics is second to persons, where politics is second to the three divine Persons of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They come first and then comes our neighbour. And then a distant third comes politics. Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget, live by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies. And I'll see you next time on the Dispatchers.
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