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Hi, my name is Brendan Malone and you're listening to the Dispatchers, the podcast that strives to cut through all the noise in order to challenge the popular narratives of the day with some good old fashioned contrarian thinking. You might not always agree, but at least you'll be taking a deeper look at the world around you.
Hi everybody. Welcome along to the very final episode of the Dispatchers podcast for 2023. That's right, we made it. Well, almost. In a couple of days time, it will be the end of the year, and a new year will be upon us. It's hard to believe, but here we are. This final episode of the year that I have for you is a bit of a special one. I sat down almost a year ago, actually to the day. Not quite, but almost exactly one year ago. I sat down with Gemma Brunton and Anna Abraham, and we were all together at an event called the Hearts of Flame Catholic Summer school. It's a ten day live in event of theological formation prayer. It's just an amazing event. There's really nothing quite like it. It's for 18 to 35 year olds. I was the former director. Gemma is the current director. It's been happening in New Zealand for over 30 years now, and there's been a lot of amazing fruits that have come out of this event. And so we were all there together. We sat down, turned on the microphones, and we recorded a conversation about women and leadership in the church. This is a bit of a hot button topic across all denominations. Now, yes, these are two catholic leaders. But don't panic. If you're one of my regular listeners and you're not a Catholic, you will recognize that these concerns and these issues, they cross denominational divides. This is a bit of a hot button topic across the denomination spectrum. There won't be too much inside catholic baseball, but you will hear a lot of things from that perspective. Don't panic. You shouldn't have to google too much. It should all make sense. But this is a really interesting, and I think, important conversation. Generally, these types of conversations can be quite militant. They can be quite politicized.
Well, they can be very emotive and highly charged. Our conversation was the exact opposite of that. And I really enjoyed being able to have this dialogue with two really great female leaders about leadership, womanhood and the church today. So without any further ado, let's hear from Gemma and Anna today. In this episode, I thought we'd talk about the sometimes vexed issue of woman and leadership, particularly in christian circles and particularly in the christian church. Now, the three of us are Catholics, so there's a specific theological ecclesial context that we're going to be probably speaking out of today. But I think a lot of these things are generic to the christian tradition in general today, some places more so than others. Before we get into that topic, which can get quite politicized and heated, perhaps we should start by throwing out a little bit of your credentials. Ladies. So what are your leadership experience credentials? What are you doing right now?
And I think leadership has a, it's fair to say, and rightly so, has a broad term, which is, know, it's not necessarily specific. I'm in charge of x, but there are different ways. Like, Annie, you've got a.
No.
Oh, what have you got?
[00:05:07] Speaker B: A licensure.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: A licensure. I thought. What was Robert saying last night? Sorry, this is some other guy that listeners are like, who's Robert?
[00:05:15] Speaker B: He's under the impression I have a PhD. And I just let him run with.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Like, because I was listening to him, I'm like, wow, she got a PhD, man. She's been so busy, I didn't even know that. It's amazing. And I just went along with it.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Thinking, oh, good, I did start one.
[00:05:29] Speaker C: She did lots of a PhD.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: It's just been on pause for five years or something like that.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Just a short break. So a licensure. What is a licensure for those who don't know what that is.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Well, I guess it's postgraduate studies. It's kind of masters.
A european equivalent of a master's.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's your specialty?
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Liturgical theology.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: Wow.
And what do you do at the moment?
You're involved, and you were involved in hearts of flame and the leadership, the planning, the direction team for that.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: I think this is my 13th hearts.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:06:08] Speaker C: Maybe she looks at me questioningly. I don't know.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: And I think six or seven years on the planning team. Yeah, maybe.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: And there's this thing called catechesis of the good shepherd that you are very much involved with leading an Aussie.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: That's my work at the moment.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: So you're working for them? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what that is.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: It's a volunteer position, but I think when you're talking about leadership, I think sort of how it's flowed in my life has been more about formation. So being involved in roles that are about formation of people in faith. So catechesis of the good shepherd is faith formation for three to twelve year olds.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: And so another time in my life, it was adults and another time was youth ministry, but at this stage it's.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Working with children and you've lectured at, you'd say, undergrad level. Right. And two seminarians as well. So male seminarians in the catholic tradition.
And I don't imagine there would have been too shocked or too many surprised faces to see a female lecturer in that context.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: No, but I think when I was doing my postgraduate studies in the area of liturgy, that was a number of. Most of my fellow students were priests.
So I did get questions, not in a derogatory kind of way, but just what led you to that?
[00:07:48] Speaker A: Well, that's a good question. What did you. Because I would imagine even for me as a bloke, I'm thinking, yeah, liturgical studies, but maybe for the priests it'd be a real thriller, but obviously something drew you to that. What was it?
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I guess when I had a conversion back to my faith in my early twenty s, one of the things that was important, an important part of that was going to mass regularly and I was involved with music in mass.
I just became really interested in that side of our faith.
And then also there was opportunity for me, if I chose to study liturgical theology, that I would perhaps get a job out of it. So, I mean, it was something that I was passionate about anyway and really interested in and had sort of followed for a number of years. And then it just so happened that there was sort of an opening for a position if I went and did postgraduate studies. So I took the opportunity to do that.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Awesome. And gemma, you have obviously hearts of flame now, director of that team. You've also got some previous youth Ministry leadership experience under your belt. Young adults leadership, was it? Sort of.
[00:09:10] Speaker C: Yeah, a real mix, I guess, just in parish life. And I always seem to find myself in these positions.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: I'm not quite sure how you got the skills, Gemma. That's also in your nine to five. You run your own leadership training business now, don't you?
[00:09:29] Speaker C: I do, yeah. That's a pretty new thing, obviously, the last six months. But, yeah, I work in leadership full time, running leadership development programs, mostly in the public service, but do quite a bit in working with women in the primary sector these days. So supporting women, farming women, actually.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Really?
[00:09:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: In what ways do you support them? Is this like to be a empowered, skilled woman in leadership or is it just in general terms, or is it. Yeah.
[00:10:00] Speaker C: So it's leadership formation, if you think about it. Like, some of the farming businesses in New Zealand is like multi million dollar businesses and a lot of the women, like the farmers, are out there every day with the cows and the sheep and doing all that sort of stuff. And a lot of the women are running the businesses and they would say, I'm just the farmer's wife.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:10:21] Speaker C: And so it's helping them to understand that they are leaders and sort of stepping into that and owning that leadership position.
So public service and quite a lot of that.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: And you've worked in some interesting roles like the corrections, which for those who are outside of New Zealand, that's our prisons system. And I don't imagine that'd be a cakewalk every day, some of the roles and that side of things. And recently the pandemic, you were sort of in the public sector when that was all kicking off and you were working with some people who were working quite high up in some of those places. Right?
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:55] Speaker C: So crazily, I still think back and think about it but crazily. But as a 22 year old. Yeah, my first, very first job out of university, I was working in the men's prison running rehab programs for offenders and my very first program was a group of violent offenders.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:11:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Doing group, sort of running group therapy as a sense.
And then before I went out on my own, I was working in the public service and central government designing leadership development programs for the public service. So yeah, right from sort of first time people leaders, which is the first time someone starts to manage other people right up into New Zealand's senior system leaders. So sort of the top 1000 sort of leaders in New Zealand. I've been designing and facilitating development for them since I left.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Wow, Gemma, that's. Man, I feel inferior sitting in so qualified.
We'll come back to that because I think that what your role, that your professional career role, I think raises this interesting distinction about different types of leadership. And I see it as like that visionary versus the process type stuff and often so much that one's good at one and not the other.
[00:12:09] Speaker C: Someone participant asked me about that last night in the dinner queue, actually, of all things.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: We'll talk about that in a second. But we are here to talk about female leadership. And I guess I'll start with you, Anna, maybe because there's a lot of talk today about women in the church. We need more female leaders and where's the female leaders and where's the woman leaders? And we need more women leadership. And in Catholicism right now there's a bit of a debate going on about the female diaconate and all this sort of stuff, and the last couple of years have suddenly arisen again.
I guess my question is, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as ladies. Is this really the big issue or is this perhaps an ancient fight that some people want to go back to because they didn't get what they felt, they didn't get the victory they wanted first time around.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Well, I think personally for me it isn't. I'm not particularly interested in the ordination ministry for women. But look, be honest, and I have friends for whom maybe not necessarily priesthood, but diaconate or something like that, they genuinely feel passionate about that.
And not that I was involved in it directly, more indirectly, but with the plenary council we had in Australia over the last few years, that was certainly quite a sticking point, especially in the.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Last assembly, because that got quite heated. Right. For those who don't know, this is a gathering of Catholics, priests, bishops, lay people from all over Australia, right. And they vote on different proposals right at the end of each session.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: Is that right? Yeah.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: And it got a bit tense when it came to that question of female leadership.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it was an eye opener to see women on both sides of the debate and women seeing another women not agreeing with them. And I think it was a good thing in the end because I think they had to sort of come together and share their own point of view and perhaps connect like they haven't done before, because it's sort of maybe not been face to face, but, yeah, look, there were people who had pretty high emotions on both sides, and that's kind of made me think a little bit more because I sort of perhaps have tended to dismiss that because it's certainly not on my radar. And I don't think theologically it is something for women.
But it does make you think, okay, well, if ordination isn't for women, what is our role in the church? And I think the church has said plenty of things about it, but it sometimes doesn't filter down to everybody in the pew or just to feel empowered. Not empowered either, but just to know what is my responsibility as a faithful Catholic, as a faithful woman, what is my responsibility in the church? What is my baptismal duty? And I think by my desire, getting into formation was not just establishing that for women, but helping people to. Well, I've been baptized. I'm a.
You know, it's not enough just to turn up on a Sunday. What else do I need to do? What should my life look like?
[00:15:40] Speaker A: What about you, Gemma? How do you feel about this issue when you hear that the role of. Because there's a big push right now at the moment where it's sort of, I don't know how you felt about it, but previous, it felt to me as a bloke, to be fair, that we were starting to, under the previous catholic pope, boat Trumble II, sorry, one, before Pope, Pope Benedict was the previous, but under J. P. Two, he wrote some really powerful and profound stuff about authentic feminism and the feminine genius. And it really felt that we were starting to get some sort of traction. And then all of a sudden, it feels like now we've gone backwards and it's like, oh, no, it's not good enough. So what do you think when you hear this as a female in the church?
[00:16:20] Speaker C: Honestly, for me, it's just a non issue. Personally, I just think there are so many places that women can lead in the church. I see so many opportunities of things I would love to help out with or ways that I could lead and serve, and I don't have the time for it.
So, yeah, I just don't think it's lacking. I don't think the opportunities for women to step up and serve and show leadership in the catholic church are lacking at all.
So, yeah, the idea for me that the opportunities are not there just doesn't exist.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: So then is this a politicized fight then that's really focused more so on the priesthood and that rather, when, often when people say woman in leadership, what they're really meaning is we want woman priests because it seems that what you're saying, gemma, is that there's these roles that need filling.
[00:17:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: And it's like if anyone who wants to really commit themselves to leadership, there's so much to be done. It's like, what do you mean there's no role for woman?
[00:17:29] Speaker C: That would be my question. And, yeah, I guess I don't know. But maybe you're right that it is just actually about the priesthood, the police, the priesthood, because there's a real need, like in the parishes. And we talk a lot. We're in a lot of catholic circles, and there's a real need in parishes. And even in something like hearts of flame, I'm often looking for people to stand up and lead, and there's just so much need out there, and we need more people to stand up.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: Is this a liberalism problem? We're living in an age of post enlightenment liberalism in all its various forms. And the whole idea of the radical individual is a big thing now, the autonomous self choosing individual. And that means you are not as connected as we once were with the concept of tribe and nation and family and community. A lot of that's broken down. So those are things that give you your identity and your sense of meaning and your sense of role in place in the world. But if that's broken down, is that a factor here, that people are like, well, what do I do? I was hearing you talk before and I was thinking maybe for a lot of people, maybe they just don't know what they're supposed to do because it's not as apparent anymore to them as a female or a male, to be fair. What is my role in this great adventure of the church?
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I think we could say that there is a crisis of faith around the world. Well, certainly in the western world. And, yeah, faith isn't an ordinary part. Well, it's been pushed out of just everyday life. And I guess what you find is even people who are Catholic and maybe go to mass on a regular basis. But there's all this other stuff that life that they do, like children are in 5 million different sports and things like that. Everyone's just so busy and people are working long hours and both parents are working.
I think people just don't give the time. Like, they're just giving their time to lots of other things because they've got a list of priorities, right. These are our priorities.
And so often, perhaps in a parish situation, you've got maybe a small group of people who kind of do everything in the parish and put their hand up, and then a whole lot of others that just turn up on a Sunday or very occasionally for other things. And there isn't sort of that sense of parish life being something, a community I'm part of and I commit to, and I commit to it beyond a Sunday mass, not just because there's a need out there, but because there's a need in my heart to be part of something.
And this is part of my discipleship.
But yeah, I think there's certainly a lack of sort of connection with that, with people.
And even with the ordination issue in some ways, as Jimmy was saying, there's just so many leadership roles out there. There's so much opportunity that's not related to ordination.
And then also we get told the whole clericalism thing is a bad news, but then everyone just wants to enter into that. And I think the whole ordination thing is almost a little bit like the only leaders in the church are people who've been ordained. And I'm like, well, that annoys me. True, either because priests, not all priests, have a natural or developed any kind of leadership ability, and they've got a particular, very important role to play in the church. But so do lay people.
I remember the first couple of times coming to hearts and someone talking about the role of the laity in the church, like the sleeping giant.
Why are we trying to aim for something else? It's the laypeople that are the ones who take Christ out into the communities and into their workplaces and into their families. And yeah, I sort of feel like we just need to get on board with that and not worry too much about those who are ordained or thinking that they're the only leaders in the church.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Hearts of flame is a great example of that, too, isn't it, really? You think about it, 30 years, it's a lay initiated and lay driven initiative, and it's amazing. It has been a real testament to that.
It's amazing. A lot of other things just wouldn't have lasted this long without some sort of connection to the official channels. Not that it's a rogue unit or anything that makes it sound like a cowboy out on. It's not. But, yeah, it's fascinating because that should be the norm, but it's not that level of lay commitment and year after year after, an evangelistic zeal. And I guess it goes back to what you were saying, anna, there's a cross of faith, so if you don't know you're not as connected to your faith, you're not going to understand that you should be evangelizing either.
[00:22:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it makes me think. When you asked me the other day and we were talking about it, hearts flames. Currently, I'm the director. My deputy director is Brendan's wife, Katie Malone, but it's two women. But I didn't even think twice about that. And then I was thinking back also, the previous deputy director was a guy, it was Tom Saywell, but then before that, it was Anna Abraham. So I was like. But it doesn't register on my radar that we are two women leading a ministry for New Zealand.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, actually, both of you, because before Gemma was the director, I was the director of Hearts of Flame.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: So it's your fault.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: It is. And I couldn't wait to get outside to just. You do it. No. And so Gemma was co director for a while. And it was so abundantly clear to me, Gemma, that you were the right person for the job. Not once did it ever cross my mind. And I'd hardly call myself a new age type bloke, but not once did it ever cross my mind. Oh, well, she's a lady. I'm not sure whether she'll be up to the know. It was just like you were the right person for the job. But have you ever had either of you, a glass ceiling moment, maybe, in the church, where you've even suspected, maybe it was, that was a factor.
[00:24:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny that you say that, because even just after what I just said, I think when you asked me, there was a consciousness of being a woman in that moment. But it was because I think one of my roles here as director is to get all the priests on board and to communicate with the cardinal and the bishops at times throughout the year. And I think that was probably, for me, where I was most conscious and probably when I am most conscious of being a woman female leader in the church and in this space running this school is trying to sometimes wrangle the priest if it's appropriate to use that word and get them on board and get their support, because I'm not a superior and I don't have a theology degree like Anna.
I guess that's the consciousness for me. But I think. I don't know if that would be any different.
Was that any different for you?
[00:25:04] Speaker A: No, and I think part of mine was just. I was a bit of a brute force thug at times. That sounds bad, but I was a bit of a loud. I was like, well, come on then, get you. Let's get going. And that's just a personality thing. But funnily enough, probably there were times where I think I deferred a lot, because as a layperson, you're often expecting the priests, for example, to do priestly duties, and that's not my specialty. And there were often you'd defer. And I was very conscious to double check if I wasn't sure. But it didn't take long to sort of get my head around that. But I don't know. I don't know if there was a male, if that's a male female thing so much as it's a laypeople ministry.
They're the clerics and they have a specialty and special set of skills. And maybe you feel a little bit hesitant to.
[00:25:51] Speaker C: But I think that's the thing in leadership across the board, is that sometimes people assume things. And that's why I asked that question, actually, is because sometimes people assume things are because they're male or female, but they can actually be about totally other things, about lay people, priests, religious.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: That's a good point. I want to hold that thought because we want to come back to that point.
Have you, Anna, were you. I mean, you were lecturing seminarians. Did you ever have a moment where they're like, well, look here, this is our thing?
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Well, I think a few times I realized, yeah, that lecturing seminarians and lay people as well in liturgy was something that was not a regular occurrence to see a woman do it. Not that a woman hasn't been able to do it, but it's just perhaps a priest is probably more naturally going to be interested in the liturgy and have the opportunity perhaps, to do further studies in order to be able to lecture.
There was no obstacles put in my way when I wanted to do that. And in fact, it was the opposite.
The church in New Zealand was very supportive of me and the bishops. And yeah, I was very grateful for that. So, I mean, they were happy for me to.
But certainly I realized that perhaps in this particular context, I did sometimes sort of feel my.
Oh, yes, I'm a female doing this. Yeah, but. But never. It was never sort of a negative thing. It's just the way history has gone, it hasn't sort of been something that perhaps many women have taken on. And certainly maybe this end of the world as well. In the States it would be different and maybe even in.
Yeah, but it was exciting and even just today, seeing some of my former students now as priests and it was just beautiful. Yeah. Almost felt a little bit like. Even though, honestly, my contribution was so tiny compared to the years and all those that contribute to their formation. But, yeah, it did sort of feel like a proud mum.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Well, that's funny you should say that, because I often think of female leadership and the feminine genius, and Pope John Paul II wrote a lot about, talked a lot about this and I think he really can. I say, I think he, as a bloke, he really cracked the nut. He understood something quite important there. And I've seen this now so many times, the way females lead. It doesn't matter whether they got children or not, they lead from a very genuinely speaking, there's a maternal instinct. They have a genuine, nurturing, emotional connection to the subjects they lead to, the ministries they're involved with. It's a beautiful thing. Blokes can be a bit brutish about that and sometimes you need that sort of. Right, we're just going to get on and get going. Other times it's just not good at all because they ride roughshot over lots of people. And so it's fascinating to hear you saying that.
You're like, oh, that's my boys.
It's a beautiful thing, I think. Is that something that we've lost, though, or we've lost sight of? It feels to me now it's like, oh, yeah, sure, but you've got to be a woman and or something else to have some valuable leadership. But why can't just the feminine genius be the point of leadership?
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Well, certainly in the secular society, maybe it's not as bad anymore, but certainly anything that made a woman distinctive, as in giving birth and being a mother, was like, we have to let that go because otherwise we can't have our careers or have.
Be the top.
And, yeah, I just can't be bothered with any of that. I just kind of feel like I'm me and I'm a particular version of.
We're all fairly unique, even male or female, whatever, and I find that I don't have children, but that kind of mothering thing comes naturally to me. And I'm just like, I'm just going to let it roll. And it's just who I am, and that's fine. And not all women necessarily feel that, but I think it's still something that's just innate in all of us. And sometimes our circumstances means that it's a difficult area for us, perhaps, to connect with.
But I think it's something that usually comes fairly naturally. And why stamp that out?
It's not a social construct. It's kind of something that I know in my experience. It just wells up within me. When I first became an auntie, my gosh, my life changed. It's not even my child.
I just felt different having a nephew. It was.
And I was like, hang on. My world changed.
[00:31:11] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:31:11] Speaker B: And. And it was kind of bizarre. Like, I hadn't really thought about it because it happened, like, you know, I don't know, it just. Yeah, it changed my life. And I think that that kind of was the welling up of that sort of feeling. Like a mother.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: What a great insight. What about you, Jimmy? Do you have a motherly instinct for the participants who come to hearts of flame each year, or for your planning team members? Or are you more sort of just. I'm too busy here getting on with the process of this thing.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: Depends what mood.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: I'm telling them to go to bed.
[00:31:47] Speaker C: It's so funny we're having this conversation because we were just in a meeting.
All the non participants gather each day, once a day, and I brief them on what's coming in the next 24 hours and just get any feedback as to how things are going. And one of the Dominicans with us present was talking about not having enough sleep or something like that. And I said something like, although I'm not in charge of you, do I need to start mothering you and tell you to go to bed earlier?
It's funny because that side, I don't think comes out that often, but it was just in that moment, and he came up to me afterwards and he said, don't worry, you were not the only person that mothers me or something.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Hints taken.
[00:32:31] Speaker C: So it obviously does just come out here and there. I think it does. In terms of the team, people don't get a lot of sleep at hearts of flame. The team doesn't anyway. And in terms of.
Sometimes I wish I was more intuitively connected, but I think I do sort of watch and sense probably more than maybe some men would watch and sense that someone's not up to speed or someone needs to be encouraged to go get some time out.
And I would guess that's sort of my feminine genius coming to play, is just that observation and watching and sensing.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: It's funny. One thing I've been, I guess this intrigued me about the conversation we've had, particularly within the Catholic Church of late. But I think most churches in the west, this is more and more of a conversation now, where's the female leaders? We need more female leadership. And one thing is also being aware of the fact that the church is bigger than just the west and maybe in other countries. There are some deficiencies that we're not so aware of in that regard. But it sort of feels to me, I look around and I travel a bit, I see a lot of churches, and I'm thinking, I don't really see a shortage of female leaders. I see females leading all sorts of things, and they're running parishes behind the scenes, they're leading youth groups, they're running like, sacramental training or catechism classes, whatever your church calls it. There's lots of that sort of stuff happening. And what I see is actually there's a lack of men who are actually present as leaders. Ironically, at the very moment we're saying, where are the females? And, like, I'd be interested to hear your take as two females. What is your take on that? Is that a fair assessment? Do you feel the same way, or is it more complicated than that?
[00:34:17] Speaker B: I think there's a greater representation of women in the church, just like in general, or certainly in the lay category in the church.
Yeah. And I don't know. I kind of think sometimes, too, we have to be careful that when we have this discussion about, should women be ordained? Because men can be. But what about the men who don't get ordained as well? What's their role in the church?
[00:34:46] Speaker A: And that's most men, the overwhelming majority, are not ordained.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: That's right. And certainly before I got married, I thought that the number of men in the church was low.
Yeah, exactly right.
Faithful men. I think we were sort of looking for someone to share faith with as well as a married life. And that sort of felt, where are they all?
And, yeah, I ended up overseas and being in churches around the world, and it felt like it was the same there as well.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: Does that point to the, you hear some people say, oh, the feminization of the church is an issue and it doesn't speak to men anymore because it's true. Men, we like that sense of adventure. We like to be drawn into something big and demanding and adventurous. And some people claim. Oh, that's missing now. It's been very. Do you think that's a fair assessment or not? What is it? Is it just cultural?
[00:36:02] Speaker B: I just think that a lot of the dumbing down of the faith is the reason.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: So people feel they just don't need faith in general.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Well, probably you could say as a generalization that men want that adventure and that real reason to be doing something, but women want that too, actually. And I just think that that's kind of been dampened down a lot.
Know, not required to really.
What was Father Isaac saying, know, about giving your all, like, being all in, and there's no encouragement to do that.
So I think it's sort of.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: So the therapeutic social gathering type model has been really harmful, is that what you're saying to both males and female?
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Well, I think so, yeah. And the secular world's not helping either. Right. But by not kind of putting that adventure, that faith adventure, I mean, 20 years ago, never would have thought my life would have evolved as it did, because, yeah, even then I had a faith. But when you go all in or try to be at least, you just never know where you're going to end up. There's a big adventure out there and. Yeah, I think that's kind of lacking, maybe, but I think there was just recently, in the australian context that I'm in, they've done mass counts and stuff post Covid, and there's been a drop, obviously, across the board, but the biggest drop is actually among women not coming to mass anymore.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: Really?
[00:37:52] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Which is. I think there's still more women than men coming, but they've dropped a lot more than men.
[00:37:59] Speaker A: That's interesting. Is there an age demographic in that.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: Or is it just about all I know as far as the data goes.
[00:38:05] Speaker C: But what's your guess as to why?
[00:38:10] Speaker B: I don't know.
Fear of getting sick? I don't know.
But Covid has really done a number just on our. Or the way in which we approached how we handled. Covid has really done a number on a lot of things, and church attendance in women is one.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: Wow.
Actually, that brings me to a point, Jimmy, perhaps, and you might want to speak to this, my thing as well. Where are the men particularly? I think that sort of middle aged type blokes in particular, there's quite a few younger blokes now starting to step up, but the leadership and the mentoring for those men is missing. And there's a lot of older guys who you still see coming to daily mass and stuff like that. But there's that big group of men who are missing in the middle, do they exist?
Things are getting desperate here but there's not a therapy session.
But yeah, I could understand why people would ask that because you know, particularly day it's interesting, I travel into Aussie a bit and Sydney often and I do notice I guess the economy of scale and there do seem to be a few more blokes and eligible blokes too in that setting.
So I've said look, where's the males in general? Male leadership? But also there's another factor here I think is where is the solid leadership processes in general? Because I've got to be honest with you and I don't want to be hypercritical, but I think Anna, the COVID response I think was a reflection of this sadly where there was a lack of leadership process and when a big moment where leadership was required it sort of just felt like there was a big vacuum. And is that a factor as well? Because you deal and you specialize in leadership process and making sure that people are good at the process. Because I think I don't know what your take on this but I think there's very few visionary leaders that you actually encounter more.
And I think that regular nine to five leadership is about doing the process as well and then continually doing it. Is that missing do you think a.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Bit from the church?
[00:40:17] Speaker C: In our church, yeah, I would agree. I think so.
This is a bit of a topic of myself, but you and I have conversations and I've had conversations with a lot of priests around actually about the fact that they don't even get formal leadership training, that they get trained in theology and how to run a parish to the level of administering the sacraments. But they're doing so much more than that and they need so many more leadership skills than that in order to help a parish thrive. And know we know a priest that's on, I'm pretty sure he's on at least four boards like governance boards. And governance is a real thing. People go to join membership of the Institute of directors and get know five day governance training and how to because of all the health and safety obligations and the finance obligations and the legal obligations. So we've got so many priests in roles like that with no formal training and actually probably not the understanding that they should have of what it means to be a governor or a director in New Zealand in the context. So that's just one area. I think there's a real need in the church for us to understand what leadership is and actually start formally training people and developing people in the space of leadership. And so I think that's for priests as well as in schools, but as well as in parish life. There's some people, my parish in Christchurch, we're really lucky that we've got some really good, solid people who actually have those leadership skills. But not all parishes are that lucky. And I think we need to be doing some work in the church to build leadership.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting that, because you see that meme now, Susan from the parish council, that was a meme for a couple of years back, and it was really the christian or catholic version of the Karen. Right, the Karen meme. And no offense to anybody called Karen, there's some lovely Karen's out there. But that whole sort of almost passive aggressive. It's not leadership skills, it's just sort of, I'm the boss and you do what I say. And they were often just deferring, too. The priest would say, right, tell them this or tell them that. And they were the sort of the gatekeeper of that sort of stuff. And so when I think about a lot of people saying, well, we want woman's ordination, I'm thinking, okay, great, but what are you going to do? Let's imagine an alternate universe where this was theologically possible and you were given that. What are you going to do with it now? Because you've just inherited a mess, haven't you? None of the real issues have been resolved. What are you actually going to do that would be any different? And where's the process that needs to be there? Right. That seems. That's missing. I don't know.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I kind of think even on a parish level, sometimes people don't want to join groups because it just gets all conflict and it gets all messy. And maybe the leader is someone who doesn't have great skills and it's just like, yeah, certainly that's sometimes a factor for me.
And I often don't want to put my hand up for leadership roles, even though I end up in them, partly because I just feel like maybe I might not do a good job at being a leader. And I feel like it's so important to do that because we don't want people to stop coming because you're not a good listener or whatever. I just think there's so many skills that many people who, perhaps out of the goodness of their heart, they put their hand up to do something in the church, but without the skills. Not just theological training, but, yeah, leadership training, how to interact with people and for our priests, too. They just come across all sorts of different people and they have to somehow connect and relate to them all. And it's not an easy job. And, yeah, I think that would be amazing if there was scope for development of their own leadership skills, because a good leader will bring other leaders through. Right.
It's not that you get to do everything yourself, but that you empower or you give opportunity for other people to step up and grow as leaders and stuff as. So, you know, you're producing more leaders and so on.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: And so, yeah, how do we address that then? How do we fix that? Because here I am, I'm sitting with two female leaders who are active in leadership and one in particular, Gemma, who has this clear vision and understanding of these issues and what's needed.
What does it look like? Is it just people, lay people have to start stepping up and role modeling it and others go, we want what they've got, or does it have to come from the top down? How do you start to address this?
[00:45:18] Speaker C: I think it's many different ways. That's such a nonsense.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very political answer.
It's a complex issue.
[00:45:27] Speaker C: I was just thinking back to what your question was before around the visionary leader, and this conversation that I was having last night with this participant was that, yes, we need visionary leaders, but we also need leaders who can execute. And it's just understanding the different types of leadership and we need it all in the church. I wouldn't say I'm a particularly visionary leader, but I'm quite good at executing. So other people, if someone else has a vision and kind of can sell that to me, I can come in and think about how to implement that. I've got quite a. I would say reasonably pragmatic and practical. And so someone says something and I think about how I can make that work or what would that look like in reality, in real life? So we need just an answer to that question and we need all sorts of leaders, and leadership looks and takes many different forms.
So how do we develop leaders? I think, yeah, it's from the work I do and bringing people into hearts of flame and trying to get them to say yes first. And then just through the experience of being around the amazing people that we are here at hearts of flame and the learning that they do in this space, I think, really grows leadership skills. If I think about Tom, my previous co director, wow. When he started, if he ever listens to this, he'll be fine.
Getting him to turn up to a meeting on time was a little bit of an effort sometimes. And he was just very casual.
And he stepped down at the end of the last school, and he was just exceptional. He had such a thinking brain. He was really committed, and he was a huge support and helped me. So watching him grow over that time was pretty incredible. So I think it's about getting people involved and calling them on, challenging them. And the same in parish life. I think of priests who are really good at that, who someone comes to them, maybe they're a visionary person. They come to them with an idea, and the priest goes, so tell me how you'd make that work, and what do you need to kind of get that going and backs them and supports them?
I think that grows leadership. It is mentoring, but I think even people who are leaders like myself, constantly need that mentoring. But I also think it is, and this has been on my brain. But recently, another colleague, another fellow Catholic who does similar work to what I do about what we could start doing in this space to formally grow catholic leaders in the church, because I think there's a bit of a need for that, as.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: You. Or what would you say? Perhaps we'll start with you, Anna, if there's a young woman listening or a female might not be young, who's just new in this whole christian leadership, and I'm a female, what do I do?
Did you imagine you would be where you were today? How did you get to where would you see perhaps as the fundamental steps, regardless of where you ended up, that have to be, you think about in female leadership, serving the church?
[00:48:50] Speaker B: I think it's all about Christ, right? I think I had a bit of a reversion back to my faith, and I had seen some people who come in contact with people who were all in for God. And so I thought, I think I want that. And so I didn't really know how one did that, but I know that I would pray, lord, just do with me what you will. And I want to say yes, and I want an adventure, but I want to know what you want me to do in my life.
Like, how do you want to use me? And I didn't always say it with firm conviction or anything, but I realized that I had to keep saying that to the Lord and then know things kind of happen. Like things fall into place. Like, I had a conversion, and then I went to World Youth Day in Rome and met some Australians who were involved with net ministries. And I was like, I've never heard of this thing before. And they were like, you should go on it. You'd be great. And I'm like, really?
And I went. And actually that was my first. I ended up being a team leader. And honestly, it was completely out of the blue when I got asked because I thought I was a pretty bad Catholic.
But again, it wasn't sort of something I necessarily went out to try and do. I just was trying to be faithful. I was just trying to get to know Jesus and try to open my heart to him and try and be all, yeah. And one thing has often led to another and perhaps in the last couple of years I've felt, where am I at? Like, I sort of. One thing led to another and then I kind of ended up. I moved to Australia and got married. And then I was like, what do I do now?
And it's taken a little while for something to unfold, for the CGS stuff to unfold, but again, it's just trying to say that to the Lord and Lord, I just want to serve you. How can I serve?
Like, I think that's where everyone should be starting. If you're thinking, I want to be a leader in the church, I don't think that's the place to start. I think it's, Lord, how can I serve you?
[00:51:20] Speaker A: That's a good point. Is that a red flag for you, Gemma, because you train in leadership and people who say, rod, I want to be the leader or a leader, or is it better that someone's. Or is it a bit of both? Does someone have to have enough drive to actually want to be involved in leadership? Or is that a misplaced prioritization where you need to put Christ first and yourself second?
[00:51:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say Christ first, yourself second. And I would also say, I do have, personally, a little bit of an internal kind of when someone is too pushy in that direction, because sometimes I can't articulate myself very well, but I think sometimes there's a sense there that something's a bit off that their direction.
[00:52:06] Speaker A: Like an agenda or something.
[00:52:08] Speaker C: Yeah, and I'm quite sensitive to agendas, actually. If I feel like there's an agenda being played at, I'll walk carefully and cautiously in that space.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: What would be your threshold? Would you give someone a crack? You thought, I can see, like, there's a little bit of an immaturity in that regard, but I think there's potential here. Do you have a red line, a bright line test where you say, I'm not going to go if this person shows too many of these? Or what do you think? Is it an art? It's more than a science, I guess.
[00:52:42] Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. It's an art, because this is how I lead so often, though, is I seek wise counsel.
You'll get to know them a little bit, and you will seek counsel of someone who knows them well, because someone might be just super keen and they might be fully in the right place. And so I'll often just kind of ask someone who I really trust that knows that person well, but also get to know them a little bit. And it depends what situation you're in. But I will often test people out, get their support, get them doing a particular job.
Already at this school, there's been a few people that I've had my eye on.
That sounds really wrong.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: Again, this isn't therapy, Jim. Thanks, Brendan.
[00:53:42] Speaker C: But just people that you can see that stand out in particular here, actually, it's servant leadership. It's the person who comes up and says, is there anything that needs doing? I've got a free moment. We've finished our cleaning tasks, or do you need help with that? Let me take that table and move that table.
There's such little things, but it's someone who's attentive, observational, other, focused.
There's all those things. That's, I guess what I look for, particularly in the context of hearts of flame, is people who, because hearts flame is not a paid role, it can be extremely demanding.
So it's people who are genuinely here to serve and lead people to Christ.
[00:54:32] Speaker A: So virtue, then, is important development virtue. Say, you both probably agree with that. If you're a young person or a person who's starting out on this journey, wants to develop leadership, skill, virtue matters a lot.
[00:54:43] Speaker C: Yes.
And being right focused and being. Wanting to develop your faith.
I was thinking what you were saying there before, and I was just really beautiful.
God calls and he leads and he puts the steps. I would say 100% that in my own personal journey.
And I think when Brendan asked me to take over, I was like, no way.
And I literally, I think, held him back for a couple of years from leaving because I wasn't ready.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: But I'm out of here.
[00:55:16] Speaker B: See you later.
[00:55:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:17] Speaker B: And I was like, no.
[00:55:18] Speaker A: Lock up after yourself.
[00:55:21] Speaker C: So God does lead you on that journey. And, yeah, I think that connection, that intimacy with Christ and knowing that he's in charge, and if this is what he wants, he will give you what you need to be able to do, it is incredibly important. And so watching the faith of others and knowing that they're leaning on God and that that's what they're seeking first and foremost, I think, as a leader, it's quite comforting because you can see that when things get tough, if they've made this decision to say yes with God, then when, and they're having a hard time, they're here for the right reasons and they will lean on him and they will come back to that. They're not just going to throw it away or walk out the door when things get challenging because it's God that's called them. We pray and discern over team members, but we also ask them to pray and discern. And I think in any leadership in the church, that's absolutely what we should be doing. We should be praying and discerning those who come into leadership, but they should be praying and discerning and constantly in that. When I took over this role, for me, there was an extra level of accountability in my own faith life of going right, I'm in this role. I've really got to make sure that I am doing my utmost to be growing in faith, but to be building that intimacy with God.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So in other words, politicize gender politics as your sort of big focus. It just. You wouldn't last in this environment, would you? I suppose you'd probably burn out pretty quickly.
[00:57:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I would think so. Because it's hard.
[00:57:28] Speaker B: It's tough.
[00:57:29] Speaker C: Leaders, leadership, any leadership is tough.
And being able to keep coming back to what am I here to do? It's one of the questions I ask the team each year.
Why did you say yes to joining the team and why are you still here? Which sounded.
Everybody laughs at that.
[00:57:52] Speaker A: We sacked you two years ago. What are you doing here?
[00:57:56] Speaker C: Why are you still here? Why do you keep coming back to serve? Because I want them to remember that each year when we go into this, I want people to be anchored to that. And I want them, if God has called them and they know that I want them to be starting the year's planning from that place.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: It's interesting a because we've all served on the hearts of flame planning team, and I think about my time in that role, and I've had the privilege of serving with some amazingly talented female leaders. And, I mean, you two are among them. And I don't just say that it's not pithy, it's not flattery.
And I think I'm just thinking of people now as we're talking. I'm just thinking, yeah, it's funny because hearts of flame would be a thing that would often be accused of being sort of regressive and conservative.
That word uttered by people who don't even understand the beauty of authentic conservative.
Yeah. And yet it's been some of, I would argue, the most progressive leadership when it comes to female leadership. It's led by a female now. And there was never any question about, Gemma, you being the right person to take that. So it's interesting, actually, when I think back on that experience and some of the most talented, gifted, and effective female leadership has been in this space, and.
[00:59:17] Speaker B: It continues to grow. Lay leaders. Right. Like, being on the planning team isn't just, oh, yeah, I'll do it, but it's a serious thing and a commitment, and those who are part of it do grow, and they learn new skills, and hopefully they take those skills to other parts of their life and further on and other parts of the church as well.
And it is, yeah, it's a lay led initiative. So I guess hearts of flame is sort of the starting point, maybe, for that movement of developing more leaders, which is great. Good to have been part of it.
[00:59:57] Speaker A: I've got one last question. You might say it's the million dollar question, and really, only you two can answer this. Maybe there are male priests or pastors or ministers out there who feel the pressure now.
We got to nurture, we got to develop this concept of female leadership. We got to create spaces for female leadership, all those kind of buzwords that you hear now as females. What do you want from the church and from leaders in that regard?
Is there something that. What would you say to them if someone said to you, like they said, we'll give you a blank check. Just tell us what we're supposed to do. What does it look like to empower female leadership? Help us. What would you say? What are you looking for?
[01:00:40] Speaker C: I feel like you could have given us more warning about that question. We could have really nailed it.
[01:00:46] Speaker B: The first thing that came to my mind was what you were saying before about that. It's great when we have parish priests where maybe we go to them and say, look, I've seen this or I want to do this, and that the parish priest would be someone that you could bounce ideas off, that if you discern together and maybe with other people in your parish that this was a good thing to do or whatever, like you discern, should we do this ministry, whatever, and then just let us get on with it?
My current parish priest is very much like that, and it's great.
There's lots of different groups in our parish, and some of that is, yeah, people have gone, oh, I want to see this happen and he's gone, go for it. What can I do to help?
Because I don't know. I don't like the focus being particularly on women. I just kind of think what we want to see is people being more faithful and more involved and offering, serving the church, and not for priests to not get in the way of that, but just priests to help facilitate that or just to kind of give us the encouragement to do that and not be too much of an obstacle. I mean, because not all ideas are great, right? Like someone might go, oh, we want to do this, and the people might be like, that's not a good idea. But to discern together, I think is.
[01:02:19] Speaker A: So don't be awkward about the female part of. So make that the.
[01:02:24] Speaker B: Just, you know, encourage lay involvement in whatever. Know.
[01:02:32] Speaker C: Definitely don't make that the.
I think. I think what you were saying there, Anna, in terms of collaboration, I think that's really key. I think if someone comes so encouraging, encouraging and supporting and inviting.
Noticing, I think, of parish priest's role is to notice people out there. Just get to know them enough that you can kind of start to see the leadership skills and inviting them.
Tell me what you're good at.
Where could you offer support in this parish? I can see that you've got some real gifts. What could you do?
Definitely agree with the obstacles. Don't put obstacles, but you can shape and mold.
[01:03:24] Speaker B: That's right.
[01:03:26] Speaker C: Invite people. If someone's got an idea, what's the purpose behind it? What are they trying to get at? What's their goal? What support do they need? Do they need to be, you know, is it. If it's a younger person, do they need to be paired up with someone or mentored by someone and, you know, somebody in the church that might be able to just help them get started or.
I think such a big role is to then encouragement as well is just encouraging people who have these ideas to put them into place and supporting them.
[01:04:04] Speaker A: Is that a uniquely feminine leadership need? And I think all people who are leaders need to know they're appreciated what they're doing because you'd walk away if you felt like it was just. No one was thanking you for any of it. But is it a particularly important aspect of female leadership to know that you're sort of nurtured in that role as well? I don't know.
[01:04:25] Speaker C: I'm not a man, so I don't.
[01:04:26] Speaker B: Know if I can.
[01:04:27] Speaker A: As a bloke, I kind of feel a little bit like. I'm like, okay, as long as you pat me on the back every now and then and tell me I'm doing okay, I'm okay. But is it, as the female and the feminine genius is such that there needs to be more of that emotional fulfillment in the role?
[01:04:43] Speaker C: I guess I don't know if I'm going to answer that in exactly the way you're asking that.
[01:04:50] Speaker A: Okay, thanks, mother.
[01:04:52] Speaker C: Sorry, but I'm going to come at it from the fact of that leadership, and I think you would identify this with this, actually. Leadership is a lonely place at times. When you carry the burden of responsibility for something, you can feel that weight on your own shoulders quite significantly at times. And I think that's perhaps where I was coming from as well. Is that needing that encouragement and support? Sometimes when you've been fighting battle after battle and you just need kind of someone to go, keep going, it'll be all right. You'll get there.
We've got your back.
[01:05:39] Speaker A: Do we need a female leadership support network of some kind for females in the church? Like good, sound, non politicized females helping females? Or is that.
[01:05:53] Speaker B: Personally, for me, I like some good feedback. I think if I don't get feedback, like encouragement, yes, affirmation is always helpful, but just solid feedback. I think feedback not just from women, but from men as well. And I find that I've got all these ideas. I'm just carrying them out. But is this a good thing?
I recently had some prayer with a friend of mine and another who was a woman and then a man as well. And it was really good because they sort of had some insights which were quite different. And sometimes I just need that really sort of blunt, straight down the line thing which women can give as well.
But I don't know, I just don't like all this separation. I just kind of like we're all in the same boat. And yes, we bring different skills, and maybe men and women are different.
They complement each other and they're different. But to just have the feedback from lots of different people, I think is. And the support of lots of different people.
[01:07:05] Speaker C: There's a beautiful thing about women's groups, and I'm not against that whatsoever. But if I think about the places I go for support and, like, my sound boards and the people I go to test things out, it's actually men.
[01:07:24] Speaker A: But that's not interesting.
[01:07:25] Speaker C: That's not because they're men. It's because of just the. I guess the people around me who I see wisdom in and who I really trust will give me sometimes that hard feedback and go, yeah. Nah, that's not a good idea. Or you want to think carefully about that.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: But it could be females if they were the right females in your life. Is that what you're saying?
[01:07:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
Again, it's not about gender, it's about wisdom. And someone who I see has a good faith that I trust that that'll be coming from the right place.
[01:08:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. So really, it's almost like we've come full circle, haven't we?
[01:08:07] Speaker C: Sorry, we're not buying into your.
[01:08:09] Speaker A: No, it's good. I'm really interested in this.
I was asking for a friend. I was genuinely interested because I think one of the issues is, and I'm going to actually be talking about this in my lecture series later this week, arts of flame and understanding the culture we live in, that good old Karl Marx. Thank you, Karl. One of the things he did was he politicized everything the moment he called religion the opiate of the know. The idea being it's this thing that dumbs you down and stops you from rising up in your rightful revolution. It makes you sort of stupefied as he introduced this idea that even our priests, our pastors, were part of the elite system that was keeping us dumbed down and they were just empowering the system. And so he politicized even our relationship to God. So everything there is political, even leadership, and even leadership in the church, it's like the male female question is almost more important than are they actually the right person? Do they have faith? It's the political talking points and identity categories. They really get in the way. Right. Of good leadership.
[01:09:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd agree.
[01:09:10] Speaker A: Well, I will say, before I say thank you, it has been a privilege, actually. I think you both are absolute treasures to the church. Can I say that? Treasures is a nappy brand in New Zealand. So maybe you're gems.
You really are. You are both amazingly gifted, talented women who bring so much to the faith and to the christian tradition in New Zealand and now Australia, across the ditch, stealing all our good stuff, crowded house, Pavlova, Anna, Abraham, you're on that list now.
And the continuing leadership roles that we serve in together when our paths cross, it's a joy for me, but, yeah, thank you both for coming and contributing and giving up your time. You're only here for a couple of days, Anna, and, you know, an hour out of your time, it's just not long enough.
[01:10:05] Speaker B: Anyway.
It is what it is.
[01:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And Gemma, I know you're busy with hearts. Every day is busy and mad.
[01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:12] Speaker C: This could have been nap time, Brendan.
[01:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So thank you for that. And just, yeah, I mean, hopefully our listeners have got something out of it. I know it's been a rewarding dialogue for me. So thank you both.
[01:10:22] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having us.
[01:10:23] Speaker B: Thanks for asking the questions, because they're not always something we. It's good to have these.
[01:10:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It was really nice. Thanks for all the work you do, Brendan. I really appreciate it.
[01:10:32] Speaker A: It's turned into a thank fest at the end. I don't know how to wrap this up.
Okay, we're finishing. Thank you. No, thank you. No, you are awesome. But anyway, to everyone, seriously, thanks, guys. And thank you for everyone for tuning in. It's been an absolute blessing and a privilege to have this conversation, and I really hope that you've got something out of this dialogue, just as I have being part of it today as well. Thank you again, everybody, for tuning into this episode. I hope you enjoyed that little conversation with Gemma and Anna. It's been a real privilege to be on this journey with you this year. I really hope you've been blessed by the episodes. You've enjoyed the content. You've found stuff that's challenging, riveting, engaging, informative, and all of those important kind of buzwords. And most of all, I will be praying for you guys that you have a blessed and holy and happy new year ahead of you. Thank you so much for your patronage and your support over 2023. Without you guys, none of these episodes would have been possible. And I am eternally grateful. Not just me, but my wife Katie as well. We are extremely grateful for your support. It means the world to us, and it allows us to actually keep producing this content. So thank you very, very much. Don't forget, live by goodness, truth, and beauty, not by lies. And I will see you next year on the dispatches.
